People are emotional beings; they want their concerns and needs to be taken seriously and to feel fully understood. Only then can they reach their full potential and contribute effectively. More than 2,200 people work for the audit and consulting firm Deloitte Switzerland. People from over 60 different countries work together every day. Everyone should feel at home. Liza Engel, as Chief People Officer (CPO), makes sure of that. She asks probing questions and isn’t satisfied with empty platitudes. She reads between the lines and perceives the person she’s talking to in a holistic way. Where does this gift come from?

Liza Engel was born in Canada and grew up as an only child, lovingly cared for by her mother. She was a rather shy child. She enjoyed observing people and discovered her ability to holistically grasp nonverbal behavior. She looks beyond the surface and is thus able to develop an understanding that allows her to recognize people’s needs and concerns without them having to tell her about them. From her mother, she learns that you can achieve anything if you work hard for it. She develops ambition and discipline, working on weekends alongside her schoolwork. After graduating from high school, Liza Engel studied economics, marketing, and finance in Alberta. She married a Swiss man and moved with him in 1999 to the country where she has now lived for 23 years: Switzerland. «I was curious and wanted to see Europe. Back then, I never could have imagined that I would never return to Canada,» she says in an interview.

Work Experience

At PwC in Zurich, she gained her first insights into professional life, then moved to Swiss Life, where she worked her way up to Senior Marketing Manager. She also developed her language skills through regular interaction with people—her initial need to catch up linguistically simultaneously sharpened her awareness of nonverbal communication. Her childhood shyness quickly faded, giving way to her talent for communication, which she gradually perfected. Liza Engel moved to Swisscom and helped shape the company for over 14 years during a time of major change. She is interested in diversity, inclusion, agile leadership, human-centered design, and customer experience design, and has been able to implement key initiatives in various roles, consistently achieving success. She plays a pivotal role in strengthening the Swisscom brand and successfully positioning the company.

«I'm surrounded by smart people who are passionate about what they do.»

In 2019, Liza Engel joined her current employer, Deloitte. The role of Chief People Officer gives her the opportunity to bring together all her skills—both those she has acquired and those she possesses naturally. She now has 20 years of experience in marketing, communications, and human resources at all management levels. She feels a deep sense of gratitude for being able to serve employees, help them unlock their potential, and provide them with targeted support. She has seen firsthand what happens when people believe in others. «I see something in you; you’re special; I believe in you.» These are the words that have shaped and strengthened her throughout her own career.

Liza Engel is 47 years young, a mother of three, and married for the second time. She is now a partner at Deloitte Switzerland, works full-time, and moved with her family to the Bernese Oberland last May. Her husband supports her in all areas of life. Together, they juggle family and work life.

Years of Maturity

When asked how motherhood has changed her management skills, she says it has been a profound experience that has completed her personality like a missing piece of a puzzle. Every day is full of the unexpected; she has to react, be flexible, and above all, not be perfect. «Learning that wasn’t easy for me,» she says, her gaze turning inward for a moment. «I’m a product of the »Martha Stewart generation’: always in a good mood, always perfectly made up, always with a smile on my face. The house perfect, the kids perfect, everything a breeze! I had to let that go.” Being honest with herself and communicating that to the outside world has made her stronger.

Within her team of 65 employees, she has also fostered a work environment characterized by open and genuine interactions, with everyone treated as equals. Transparent communication, combined with a positive attitude, has also been essential for collaboration during the pandemic. In an internal survey, employees described management’s communication and actions as «fair»—a compliment, as Liza Engel sees it. Ever since she and her family moved to the Bernese Oberland and have been experiencing the benefits of nature every day, Liza Engel has felt a growing desire to advocate for greater sustainability. She wants to place a stronger focus on this issue both in her personal life and at work—as treasurer of Natur und Mensch.

Deloitte is one of the leading audit and consulting firms in Switzerland and worldwide. The company offers industry-specific services in the areas of Audit & Assurance, Consulting, Financial Advisory, Risk Advisory, and Tax & Legal. With over 2,200 employees across its six locations—Basel, Bern, Geneva, Lausanne, Lugano, and its headquarters in Zurich—Deloitte serves companies and institutions across all sectors of the economy.

«Advertising should no longer be intrusive; instead, it should offer added value.»

While many years ago everyone was familiar with the commercial featuring the «Melitta Man» or the latest provocative Benetton ad, consumers today are often exposed to a wide variety of advertising messages—and, ideally, the one that best suits their personal needs. «Mass communication is becoming personalized and tailored to consumers,» explains Benjamin Tück, Managing Director and Accenture Interactive Lead for Switzerland. «Advertising should no longer be intrusive; instead, it should offer added value.»

Many small assets

A personalized approach, tailored product recommendations, custom banners, personalized TV commercials, and digital outdoor advertising tailored to passersby: personalization in marketing takes many forms. «With personalized advertising, there’s no longer just one big video or one banner—instead, there are many small advertising assets that meet the specific needs of consumers,» says Carsten Jamrow, Executive Creative Director and member of the executive board at Jung von Matt Limmat. The advertising executive calls it a shift in thinking when it comes to producing these assets: «We’re no longer talking about five to ten assets, but—depending on the brand—certainly several hundred to a thousand.» And it was time for this shift in thinking, because consumers today are practically demanding that companies address them in a personalized way. They’ve long been accustomed to personalized product recommendations from online giants like Amazon or services like Netflix—so why shouldn’t advertising also come with tailored messages?

Experts agree: Nearly 80 percent of the technology experts surveyed from companies in North America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and New Zealand stated in an Optimizely study that personalized content and product delivery already has a medium to high priority, meaning it is no longer just a trend but a genuine «must-have.» Fifty-six percent are convinced that personalization leads to higher customer satisfaction. And yet, implementation is lagging: 91 percent believe that companies’ technical infrastructure is not yet equipped to meet these requirements, and that artificial intelligence and machine learning are not yet being utilized sufficiently. Consumers see it this way, too: According to a study by Periscope by McKinsey, 42 percent of consumers feel that the majority of advertising messages still come across as mass-produced.

There is no single truth

Does personalized advertising spell the end of one-to-many marketing—better known as the «scattergun» approach—and, by extension, wasted reach? «One doesn’t rule out the other,» says Carsten Jamrow. «While we believe that successful campaigns should become increasingly personalized in the future, mass media still has the unbeatable advantage of building broad reach, especially for brand campaigns.» In other words, it depends on the objective; advertisers must first ask themselves what they want to achieve with their campaign. “You first have to fill the funnel with awareness tools (push) in order to then capture traffic on websites, in physical stores, or on search engines using performance tools (pull),” explains Nico Podgorny, Director of Digital at Havas Switzerland.

This means that for products relevant to all target groups—such as FMCG—a broad approach is worthwhile, as it is for branding campaigns. However, if you want to promote a more specialized product that isn’t aimed at everyone but only at a specific customer base, the campaign should be tailored to that audience. Companies today can no longer afford to advertise using a purely «scattergun» approach. «With the scattergun approach, you’d always have to accept waste coverage—and that would be unacceptable from a budget management perspective. Starting with a broad approach to gather insights about potential customers and then personalizing the campaign in the next step would be a conceivable approach. This shows that there isn’t just one right answer here either,» says Benjamin Tück of Accenture.

Solutions for a Cookie-Free Future

There is no single truth, but there is a new one—and for advertisers, that means the effort required is increasing. They need the right data, but that’s not always so easy. According to a global study by Optimizely, technology experts see limited access to usable, reliable data as the biggest obstacle to successful personalization projects. The reasons: insufficient data access, subpar IT infrastructure, and gaps in personnel resources and expertise. Respondents are convinced that this has a negative impact on business performance. However, in addition to using the right data, it’s also important to use it wisely and not overdo personalization. «In channels that can be credibly personalized and are also perceived as personal in the context of use—such as email, direct mail, or chats—a well-executed, personalized approach can build trust and offer the consumer added value. However, it’s important that not just a few elements—such as the salutation—but all parts demonstrate maximum personal relevance. Otherwise, the message runs the risk of being interpreted negatively,» says Nico Podgorny of Havas. Another thing that doesn’t go over well: when the targeting is off—like those colorful striped bed sheets that are offered for sale over and over again across all channels, even though you’ve already bought them long ago.

On top of that, there’s another problem affecting the entire advertising market: the end of third-party cookies is just around the corner, and first-party and alternative data are becoming more important. Service providers like Uhoo are working flat out on solutions for a cookie-free future: The company relies on precise geographic insights, which—as CEO Stephan Frey promises—allow it to know exactly what is where and which groups of people are located where. This means users are targeted based on their specific circumstances—all without cookies. To achieve this, Uhoo says it has established a virtual network across Switzerland. As a result, ads for financial service providers or luxury goods, for example, are shown only in affluent communities, while sustainability-related content is targeted only at locations that voted in favor of environmental protection and sustainability in the most recent referendum. According to Frey, this is exactly the right approach, because «personalized advertising doesn’t necessarily mean building an individual data profile. Rather, it means addressing a user based on their sociodemographics or interests.» Now it all depends on what companies do with this information to ensure that customers also derive added value from it. One thing is certain, however: they have significantly more options today than they did back when the «Melitta Man» was still flickering across every screen at once.

This article first appeared in the m&k print edition 1-2/2022.

Sustainability and environmental protection are among the most pressing issues of our time. This is also reflected in the demand for eco-friendly giveaways, advertising, and promotional items. All of the suppliers and specialists surveyed emphasize that more and more companies are acting in an environmentally friendly and responsible manner and are expressing this through their choice of promotional items. They note that the balance between the environment and the economy is more relevant today—not only from the perspective of companies, but also from that of the recipients.

«When a company prints its logo on sustainable promotional items, it fosters a positive business relationship,» says Markus Schnelli, owner of Wipex Werbemittel. In addition, the company is doing something good and strengthening its green image.

Sustainable—what does that mean?

But what exactly are sustainable promotional products and giveaways? From the perspective of Swiss knife manufacturer Victorinox, sustainability is increasingly equated with regionality—that is, with locally produced products, short transport distances, quality, and distinctiveness. «Demand for such promotional items has risen steadily in recent years, but especially since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic,» says a company spokesperson. This is because people want to show special appreciation to employees in highly stressful situations—such as healthcare workers—by giving them particularly attractive, regional, durable, and high-quality products. Edith Meier, a member of Promidea’s executive board, also notes that when it comes to sustainable giveaways, products made from local materials and produced as locally as possible are in particularly high demand.

Beware of Greenwashing

Michael Mätzener, owner and managing director of Diewerbeartikel, emphasizes that even locally and ecologically produced promotional items are sustainable only if they have high practical value. He also warns against supposedly sustainable labels that are actually just engaging in greenwashing. This is where the expertise of a promotional products agency that knows what it’s doing is needed.

«Even locally produced and eco-friendly promotional items must offer high practical value.»

Alex Roethlisberger, CEO of Polydono, also confirms that greenwashing is becoming an increasingly common issue: «We believe that sustainability begins with transparency,» says Roethlisberger. Traceability and sustainability are closely linked—the motto is «reduce—reuse—recycle.» That’s why Polydono primarily recommends products made from recycled or recyclable materials. Transparency is especially important here—it’s not so much about inventing new products as it is about continuously optimizing the existing product line.

The selection process begins with the manufacturer

Selecting a sustainable promotional item begins with choosing responsible manufacturers who produce their products in accordance with strict safety regulations, health, and environmental standards—and who can document this. The Swiss office supplies manufacturer Biella advises that when choosing a sustainable promotional gift, it is essential to look for certifications such as FSC or Blue Angel. And Yves Kämpf, Sales Director at the Zurich-based promotional products manufacturer BB Trading, explains that the company has been committed to sustainable products for many years; since early 2022, BB Trading has also been producing all orders in a climate-neutral manner. In collaboration with myclimate and an internally developed tool, the company calculates the CO2 emissions of its entire product range and offsets them. Furthermore, the company is working with Intep (Inte­grale Planung GmbH) to develop a scorecard that rates products using scientific methodology. Key criteria include the CO2 emissions from the material, transportation, and packaging, as well as reusability, recyclability, and any applicable sustainability labels. «By applying a balanced weighting to the criteria, we compare different items with one another. This allows us to determine how sustainable a product really is,» explains Kämpf.

Recycled Materials Are Trending

According to Kämpf, products from Swiss manufacturing facilities and promotional items made from recycled materials were popular last year. New opportunities are constantly emerging in this area. As a licensee of the Seaqual Initiative, BB Trading could, for example, produce a cloth or a bag made from recycled plastic waste collected from beaches and oceans.

«There are always new possibilities when it comes to promotional materials made from recycled materials.»

The trend toward giveaways and promotional gifts made from recycled materials is also confirmed by other suppliers—as is a demand for high-quality, durable products. These include customizable notebooks and planners (Biella), wooden cutting boards made from local, FSC-certified wood (Promidea), Fair Trade bags, organic food bags, and lip balms in certified, eco-friendly cases (Wipex), or pocket knives with wooden handles (Victorinox). When asked what the green trend products for 2022 are, Michael Mätzener of Diewerbeartikel responds: «There isn’t just one sustainable product. It’s about finding the right item to convey the right message. Sustainability must also be in the DNA of the advertising company.»

INTERVIEW

«This, too, is about a company's external image.»

Giveaways can play an important role in sustainable business practices. The Bern-based creative workshop Sürprisen specializes in giving sustainable products as gifts. m&k spoke with co-founder and CEO Christine Angeli.

Which items are people asking about?

The basic question is: How do I want my company to be perceived, and what message do I want to convey with my giveaway? The main problem with traditional promotional items is the cost: A product that costs twenty rappen, produced in quantities of a thousand, is rarely sustainable. Since Sürprisen is a combination of product supplier and agency, this is where things get particularly exciting for us: Upon request, we develop custom giveaways that meet sustainability criteria, both in terms of materials and production.

What should you consider when choosing a product?

In addition to keeping supply chains as short as possible and ensuring fair working conditions in the workshops, we believe it’s particularly important to first and foremost ask about the message and the desired impact. The story behind a product is always just as central to us: In our anonymous world, it’s important to put the people and ideas behind the product front and center. And finally, innovative products are in demand: ballpoint pens and the like are definitely out.

Don't worry—the next few lines aren't going to be a fawning ode to that new hot thing called the «metaverse.» Instead, I’d like to use this space to offer a few perspectives, food for thought, and some context. And maybe even answer a question or two that you haven’t dared to ask yourself yet.

Metaverse? Metaverses? Wait, what?

These days, you can literally be swimming in articles, blogs, and videos about the metaverse. This pool of information is so deep that even digital deep-sea divers would find it satisfying—but with such an abundance of information, information overload is bound to set in—or, to put it simply: you’ll feel overwhelmed. So here’s a quick explanation of the terms:

«I'm far from being a hater—but I'd like to see a little more substance in the discussion.»

Over the years, digital platforms and video games such as Roblox, Minecraft, and Fortnite have become digital «spaces» offering experiences that are almost as real as life. For example, in April 2020, rapper Travis Scott hosted a virtual live concert that drew over 12 million viewers, who participated directly as their Fortnite avatars. Venture capitalist Matthew Ball coined the term “metaverse” to describe these virtual experiences and spaces. This definition has shaped the discourse ever since.

So whenever you see the word «metaverse,» you can replace it with «digital space» or “virtual space.” It doesn’t matter whether it’s for a concert or an investor meeting. For those of you who already knew that: Now the exciting part begins.

Former gamer, now an NFT pioneer

I knew the day would come when all those countless hours I spent in front of the computer during my teenage years would finally pay off. Whenever I chat with my fellow gamers about the metaverse, the consensus is always: «Yeah, so what’s the difference between this and our loot sales in Diablo or in-game weddings in World of Warcraft?» Don’t worry. Here’s the explanation.

For years now, various video games have allowed players to customize their own digital characters with cosmetic items. From a glowing helmet with special properties to a pink parrot waiting for the player in their digital home, everything could be earned or purchased. In Diablo 3, for example, it was already possible as early as mid-2012 to list items for real money in an auction house. Some players earned thousands of francs this way by selling virtual swords, armor, and other items. In World of Warcraft, as early as 2006, newlywed gamer couples would often throw a virtual wedding for all the friends they knew only online. A quick aside: Microsoft just bought the company that developed these two brands for 70 billion dollars.

So for years now, we’ve been able to own digital plots of land and houses in games, sell items for real money, or organize events. What exactly is the difference between that and the current vision of the metaverse? One advancement that’s often cited is NFTs. They allow us to certify ownership of digital assets. Please forgive me for oversimplifying NFTs so much, but otherwise I wouldn’t have m&k I would have to make half the magazine available. Thanks to these digital certificates of ownership, I could, for example, build an art museum in the metaverse and charge admission. To do this, I’d buy a virtual plot of land, place a digital property on it, and decorate it with NFT artworks that I’ve purchased on platforms like Opensea.io. And there you have it: the metaverse museum. Filled with one-of-a-kind artworks that only I own (in theory). So are NFTs and the blockchain the key to truly giving digital goods «value» in virtual worlds? Yes and no.

Who will be the top dog?

The battle for virtual space has only just begun. Tech giants are investing billions of dollars to get «the» metaverse as quickly as possible. But how is that supposed to work in a world where I can launch a second universe at the push of a button? Here’s an example: In 2017, «Decentraland» entered its beta phase. In this virtual 3D world, there are around 90,000 plots of land available for purchase. At first, they cost just a few dollars. Now, the most sought-after digital plots are selling for more than $100,000.

Do you remember my art museum, which we used as an example earlier? That museum, all the artworks inside it, the admission fee, the way the guided tour is conducted, and much more would be controlled and regulated by the economy in Decentraland. But what happens if all users migrate to a new metaverse? Is my entire investment now down the drain, and is my digital entrepreneurial fairy tale about to fail because I bet on the wrong metaverse? In theory, my digital assets should retain their value in other metaverses as well—after all, I own the artwork itself, not just the artwork in Metaverse 1 or 2. But how can they be transferred from one universe to another? Are there fees involved? Are they even technically compatible? As you can see, there are a lot of question marks.

«There's no baseline yet. The world of NFTs is like the Wild West.»

Another issue is already becoming apparent today: the matter of copyright. Maybe you’ve heard of the «Weird Whales.» It’s the heartwarming story of a 12-year-old boy who launched 3,350 computer-generated pixel whales as an NFT project, allowing him to further develop his passion for programming. In no time at all, the prices for the whales skyrocketed; the boy had earned a six-figure sum, and media outlets around the world reported on the project. A few days later, a user took the time to Google the pixel whales and discovered that some of the designs were apparently identical copies of another artist’s work.

To this day, it remains unclear how much «design theft» was involved. The fact is: The owners immediately began reselling their pixelated whales—at massive losses, of course. If the pixel whales had been the main attraction in my digital museum, I would have been driven to virtual ruin by now, and my crypto wallet would be empty. NFTs were supposed to solve the problem of digital copyright, but in some cases they’re being misused to achieve the opposite.

My house. My car. My NFT.

On LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and the like, you’re no longer part of the scene if you don’t have a new digital avatar as your profile picture. Show-off culture in 2022: My house, my car, my NFT. What’s never missing is the price paid and the prediction that this avatar will eventually change everything. Amid all the hype, the issues mentioned above tend to get lost or brushed aside. I don’t even want to get into topics like artificial scarcity, power-hungry blockchain protocols, and the resulting disastrous energy balances. That alone could fill an entire issue.

What’s important to me in this section can be summed up simply: Don’t fall prey to FOMO (Fear of Missing Out). Do you know why so many NFT owners hype them up so much? Because otherwise their NFTs would lose value. After all, there’s no baseline yet. It’s the Wild West—and I’d be glad if you only pulled the trigger when you’re sure you’re not facing off against Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Disclaimer: I own NFTs myself and have already launched my own project with my company. I’m far from being a hater—but I’d like to see a little more substance in the discussion than just sheer hype and market-huckster nonsense.

Is there a trend toward digital second homes?

The metaverse is said to be the future of work, entertainment, and social interaction—but which one? The one from Meta? Why not the one from Microsoft, Amazon, or another player instead? As much as I love the technology and the idea behind the metaverse, NFTs, and this whole push, I feel that this new world needs time. Time that it’s currently being denied due to unconditional hype. Time needed to develop certain standards. Time to create real-world use cases. And time for these use cases to truly resonate with the general public.

«The metaverse needs time, which the unconditional hype isn't giving it.»

But as is so often the case, we’ll probably have to crash the whole thing into a wall first, so that once the dust settles, technology and society will truly be ready for change. To wrap up this stream of consciousness, I’m sure you’re now waiting for me to distill all my rambling down to one key point. I’d be happy to.

Virtual worlds? Nothing new. Digital certificates of ownership? Great technology that’s being misinterpreted. The hype? It thrives on half-knowledge and lucky breaks. But what is new and fascinating is the shift that has taken place in the minds of our society during the COVID era. The realization that avatars, virtual events, and digital art aren’t just niches for nerds, but might just be the future of our communication. The real revolution is happening—once again—in our minds.

In a nutshell

Over the years, digital platforms and video games such as Roblox, Minecraft, and Fortnite have evolved into digital «spaces» that offer experiences that are almost as real as life itself. Venture capitalist Matthew Ball coined the term “metaverse” to describe such virtual experiences and spaces. This definition has shaped the discourse ever since.

* Roger Hämmerli is the founder and managing partner of the digital content newsroom Andy Was Right.

Johannes Hapig: Jennifer Palmieri, you’ve had an impressive career. You served as communications director for both U.S. President Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign; you’re a bestselling author, a consultant, and you have your own TV show. Yet your career began quite modestly.

«The President of the United States of America has a lot of power, yes—but very little control.»

While in college, you applied for an internship with Congressman Leon Panetta, who shortly thereafter became Bill Clinton’s chief of staff. Panetta made you his personal assistant—and that’s how you were «promoted» to the White House at just 26 years old.

To be honest, at that age I wasn't particularly thrilled about being someone's personal assistant. I thought it would be a step backward in my career. I wanted to do it for six months at most and see how it went. But in the end, I had the job for two and a half years—and I’ve never learned more in any other role.

You must have made an excellent impression on the Clinton administration, because Press Secretary Mike McCurry asked you to join his team and move from administration to communications.

That was really strange for me because I had no experience dealing with the media. To be honest, I was absolutely terrified of the press (laughs). But Mike trusted me, and I was pleasantly surprised: I started to like reporters! They were very smart and very well-informed. A little cynical, maybe, but I liked that.

She went on to hold various positions within the Democratic Party. Her career progressed steadily until she finally became Director of Communications for the Obama administration in 2013. It was an incredibly challenging role.

You know, people think the President of the United States has an enormous amount of power. Yes, he has power, but he has very little control. And that goes for his team, too: When you work in the White House, you’re constantly confronted with things you have no influence over. Everything that happens in the world can affect your day-to-day work and the decisions you have to make. Events and news come rushing at you from all directions—things you didn’t see coming. That’s why a longtime aide to Presidents Nixon and Ford is quoted as saying that working in the White House is «like playing squash»: When you hit a ball against the wall, it bounces off and comes back. But you don’t recognize its exact trajectory until the very last moment. That’s why providing the president with a consistent narrative always seemed more important to me than chasing after the «perfect headline.».

Could you elaborate on that?

In the White House, you might say, «This week we’ll focus on this or that message,» but more often than not, even the most carefully crafted communication plan is jeopardized by external factors. That could be a dispute in Congress, the economy, or anything else happening on the world stage. That’s why I’ve always asked myself first: «How do we ensure that the President’s fundamental qualities shine through even in his response to current events—whatever they may be?» Consistency is what sticks with people. After all, people only get very fleeting, brief glimpses into the workings of politics—so these glimpses must be internally consistent. Whether the president is speaking about a national security decision, corporate taxes, or foreign policy: every statement, every comment must reflect, on a small scale, what he stands for on a larger scale.

There are, of course, certain prejudices against communications professionals in politics. Some of your colleagues are referred to as «spin doctors» who try to put a favorable spin on the news.

There are indeed people in our line of work who try to act as «spin doctors.» They think they can give a story a new twist by twisting politicians’ words or offering different interpretations of what was said. But I’m a Democrat—and we believe it’s fundamentally important to stay on the side of the truth. As a rule, it’s best to share your honest thoughts with the media and the public rather than trying to hide or obscure anything. My advice to colleagues working in political communications is this: Explain your administration’s actions. Make sure everyone understands what drives you. In the end, you certainly won’t be satisfied with everything the press writes, because journalists, in turn, have their own perspective on things. But at least you’ll maintain your credibility.

The Obama administration used humor as a powerful communication tool. The president appeared on late-night TV and announced his healthcare reform in the form of a blues song. He also agreed to appear on an episode of the infamous show «Between Two Ferns,» among other things. How do you pull something like that off?

We’ve constantly been looking for ways for Barack to break out of an environment where he’s heard only by the White House press corps. Whether that meant appearing on shows like «Ellen» and «The View» or even on a late-night talk show. Sometimes I’ve wondered if certain things might be «too much,» if they might, well, come across as «unpresidential.» But on the whole, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s good for the American president to reflect pop culture—after all, he is a reflection of America. Besides, I’m convinced that while there are no risk-free decisions in communication, if you’re not willing to take risks, you’ve already lost.

Speaking of «taking a risk»: Would you say that’s what you did when you left the Obama administration in 2015 and joined Hillary Clinton’s campaign team?

I could have «wrapped up» Obama’s presidency alongside him, sure. But I had worked for Bill Clinton for several years and weathered many, many difficult situations with him and Hillary. I knew them really well. And that’s why I was confident that I was in a particularly advantageous position to support them. Ensuring that Hillary won was, as President Obama used to say, just as important to the «entire enterprise» as working for him. Incidentally, I still believe today that I was probably better prepared than most anyone else for what lay ahead. Although I never could have anticipated everything that would actually happen.

Because shortly after you started your new job, the field of Republican presidential candidates began to narrow—and Donald Trump took the lead. What did you think of him back then?

At first, I thought, «Okay, the fascination he holds for some people won’t last.» But then Trump made all these incredibly controversial statements. About Senator John McCain, who was held captive and tortured during the Vietnam War, he said: «I like people who don’t get captured.» And that’s when I thought for the first time: «Okay, if he survives that politically, he might survive anything.» We watched the Republican debates; we saw that none of the other candidates was able to stand up to Trump. Some tried to take the high road, but that didn’t work. Others tried to play his game—and that definitely didn’t work either. If I’ve learned one thing, it’s that you can never outdo Trump. We hesitated for a long time before getting involved in the Republican debates, until we finally did. But it was asymmetric warfare. There’s this theory that we wanted Trump as a candidate because we supposedly thought we’d win an easy victory against him. The opposite was true: I was incredibly worried, because Hillary was, after all, a rather conventional establishment candidate, and Trump was unconventional in every respect. That made things much more difficult for us.

Is it because—whether in terms of communication or other areas—you haven't been using the same methods and techniques?

The «toolkit» he relied on was off-limits to us. Hillary represented the absolute antithesis of Trump. Engaging in a «race to the bottom» with him would have been idiotic. Because someone like Trump will always be willing to go one step further. At the time, some Democrats even called for us to emulate the Republicans« style and tone, saying things like, »We have to be like Trump and his people; we have to be nasty, lie, and get our hands dirty.” But I disagreed then, and I still do. Okay, our party can be frustrating because we have internal disputes to work through. We sometimes send mixed messages; we don’t all say the same thing. But: We saved the Republic! And the United States. America is still standing—for now—because the Democrats have remained true to the truth.

«Even though Hillary lost, I think our overall understanding of leadership has broadened.»

When you say that America still exists «for the time being,» do you mean that Joe Biden’s presidency is more of a «hiatus» than the end of American populism?

I think we’re experiencing a breather right now; Biden’s presidency represents a breather. The future, however, lies uncertain before us. America has only been in a similarly precarious situation once before, and that was the Civil War. That’s how serious the situation is, I believe. But I also believe that it depends on how each and every one of us behaves—and I always try to be optimistic. There are certainly a few positive developments: Almost everyone I speak with, whether inside or outside Washington, D.C., wants to bridge the divide that is tearing our country apart. Moderate Republicans feel encouraged by this, and there’s a chance the party will slowly distance itself from the Trump era. So even if there might be a Republican attempt to overturn the election in 2024, as was the case in 2020, I think the American people ultimately want to move forward together.

«Every comment must reflect, on a small scale, what the president stands for on a larger scale.»

In an interview, you once said that Hillary Clinton was only able to show «half of her humanity» during the campaign. On the one hand, because she was the first female presidential candidate in U.S. history and had to be extremely cautious about her public image. But on the other hand, it was also because it was difficult to highlight certain aspects of her personality while Trump was constantly ranting and hurling insults. Will warmth, empathy, and compassion—perhaps as attributes of a future presidential candidate—help win elections?

I can certainly imagine that. Even though Hillary lost, I think our overall understanding of leadership has broadened. And that a progressive candidate—whether a woman or a man—with an agenda of compassion and respect could win. With a perspective that doesn’t look down on people from above, but rather meets them at eye level, signaling: «I care about you, and we all care for one another here in the United States of America.» I believe people don’t just want to feel valued; they also want to be called upon to do their part. They want to show that they can achieve something. They want to prove that they can stand united, even when the darker sides of human nature try to pull us in a different direction.

Your two books, *Dear Madam President* and *She Proclaims*, send a message to women around the world to make their voices heard, face challenges, and bring about change. What inspired you to write these books?

After Hillary’s election defeat in 2016, I wanted to make sense of the things I had done and seen. Joan Didion once said that «we tell stories to live»—and I had these experiences that you simply don’t have unless you were part of the Clinton campaign tour (laughs). I knew what had actually happened there. It had become clear to me that all of us, no matter how progressive we may be, have prejudices in our minds that are built into the system and hold people back. Women, in particular, hold themselves back because they’ve internalized the idea that they must constantly «improve» or that they «simply don’t deserve» this or that. Dozens of times a day, women are told that they aren’t as valuable as men; starting with the sports we see on TV, the music we listen to, the books we read—all the way to the people who represent us in politics. That’s exactly what I wanted to shed light on when I wrote the books you mentioned.

«To be honest, I was absolutely terrified of the press. But I was pleasantly surprised.»

Where should one start when fighting for equality in society? With internalized barriers, or with the economic and political conditions?

We need to work on both. These two areas are interdependent: As soon as women overcome their inner doubts and insecurities, they begin to demand more from the prevailing social conditions. And vice versa.

How have you personally overcome patriarchal structures throughout your career?

I am one of four sisters; I have no brothers. I think that had a big influence on me, because I never experienced anyone in my own family being treated differently because of their gender. So perhaps I was, from the outset, more courageous in difficult situations at work. Nevertheless, I became increasingly aware of the structures you mentioned while I was working at the White House. Of course, I was valued there and had wonderful male colleagues who were committed to my success. But I noticed that they advanced more quickly than I did. I noticed that they were more successful at a younger age. For a long time, I convinced myself that titles and salary didn’t matter to me—as a kind of moral crutch to help me cope. But at some point, I started to fight back and make demands. The same thing happened, by the way, during the Clinton campaign: There was a situation where I was speaking with the journalist Mika Brzezinski—and she very strongly encouraged me to ask for more money for my work. The next day, I went into the office, asked for a raise—and became the highest-paid person on the campaign. Ultimately, it always comes down to what you’re willing to put up with—and what you simply refuse to accept.

«If I've learned one thing, it's that you can never outdo Trump.»

It's about making yourself heard—both figuratively and literally.

Yes. We're simply wired to perceive male voices more clearly than female voices. There were even meetings with Hillary where she would say something, but people wouldn’t react to it. And then when one of our male consultants said exactly the same thing, the team would say, «Hey, that’s a good idea!» (laughs). Those were eye-opening moments. I sat there and realized: I had more than two decades of my career in Washington behind me, and there still hadn’t been a female president. Women made up 18 percent of the U.S. Congress. We have to stop getting in our own way. It’s not as if there are no opportunities at all, but if we women don’t finally realize that we deserve these opportunities—and if people aren’t willing to broaden their ideas about leadership—then nothing will change.

Jennifer M. Palmieri is an American political consultant, author, and media personality who served as White House communications director from 2013 to 2015 and subsequently as communications director for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. Palmieri is a co-host of the political documentary series «The Circus» on Showtime and has published several bestsellers.