m&k: Aloys Hirzel, Nicolas Ziegler, you both have had distinguished careers as a consultant and a brand expert, respectively. You could sit back and rest on your laurels, but instead, you’ve decided to found Trusted Board Advisors together with four colleagues. Why? And—why now?

Aloys Hirzel: Yes, why now? The answer is actually obvious: In the business world, it’s crucial to constantly monitor the market and its dynamics. Companies must regularly ask themselves: Are we still offering the right product or service for a changing world? Since the onset of COVID-19, we’ve experienced numerous changes; some were temporary, while others are here to stay. Society, the economy, politics—everything is undergoing transformation. Leaders must not only be able to analyze these changes but also be capable of developing concrete solutions to respond effectively. They need support in this process, and we aim to provide it with a team of highly qualified experts.

 

Your concept is aimed at the top management of companies and places the concept of «reputation» at the center. Can you explain this emphasis to me?

Dr. Nicolas Ziegler: Leadership, trust, and reputation: A company’s economic and social success hinges on these three dimensions, especially in the emotionally, ethically, and morally charged times we are experiencing today. Trust grows from leadership that is guided by a clear compass and a commitment to setting an example. This forms the foundation for trust and a sustainable reputation, both internally and externally. Trust and reputation are the most important elements of a company’s intangible value. This is the business foundation of our mission. We focus on where reputation is built—or squandered: in a company’s governing bodies, where members of the board of directors and executive management shape their company’s reputation through their actions and decisions in a complex environment, thereby either building or eroding trust. Reputation is an elusive asset composed of numerous elements. A reputation is sustainable only as a whole. And gaining an overview of the whole means recognizing the core elements of a strong reputation and continuously developing them further. This holistic perspective forms the foundation of the consulting services provided by Trusted Board Advisors. We all have many years of experience in the key building blocks that influence reputation.

 

How does the «intangible value» of reputation translate into concrete economic success?

AH: Reputation is the key to everything—it determines the acceptance of a corporate brand, opens doors to the capital market, attracts talent, and much more. While our emphasis on reputation is not new, its central role in today’s business world sometimes seems to take a back seat. We intend to change that—and we will.

«Society, the economy, politics—everything is undergoing a transformation.»

NZ: Reputation is the end result of a feedback loop that reflects the strength of the corporate brand. I have long been fascinated by the power of brands, with my focus on corporate brands rather than product brands. This is because, especially in industrial companies, it is the corporate brand that matters when it comes to developing new goals—who is behind the product, who is the manufacturer? These considerations have already led several companies to us—companies that recognize the need for change, whether it’s sharpening their strategy or reinventing themselves to win over their stakeholders. One of the most exciting tasks is helping a company regain its lost substance and turn a corporate name into a strong brand. The brand plays a decisive role in a company’s positioning—it’s not just about advertising, but about strategic considerations.

 

Aloys Hirzel, you strike me as a modest gentleman … but colleagues at a major business publication recently described you as «the nation’s most powerful behind-the-scenes influencer.» Do you identify with such a title? And if so, do you plan to use it to your advantage for your new company?

AH: To be honest, I don’t really know what to make of such labels. I don’t see myself as a «whisperer» at all. Before we founded Trusted Board Advisors, I spent nearly three decades as a co-founder and partner at a consulting firm that—admittedly, quite successfully—was dedicated to advising companies and their executives. I didn’t «whisper» anything to them; I tried to help them successfully navigate challenging situations. Because, you see: It’s often not a matter of whether people could recognize the challenges and changes they’re facing on their own—in most cases, that would certainly be possible. Rather, the difficulty lies in fully grasping and accepting these changes; especially when they’re unpleasant. It’s human nature to repress certain things. I usually refer to Dürrenmatt’s statement in *The Physicists* that a situation has only been fully thought through once its worst-case scenario has been considered. Sometimes, even as a CEO or chairman of the board, you need someone to guide you through such a thought process—someone who tells you, «We mustn’t look away now.»

 

So your network of relationships—which in Switzerland is the subject of almost mythical tales—doesn’t play a role for Trusted Board Advisors?

AH: I’m often asked if I know this person or that one. I always try to put that into perspective: Why would a connection to the person in question be important? You can have plenty of access to influential people and still face a challenge that none of them can help you with. The question shouldn’t be, «Who do you know?» It should be, «How can we speed up the decision-making and implementation processes that are relevant to us?» If I can call someone to help with that, great. But those people are rarely celebrities, and it’s even rarer that a single phone call is enough (laughs).

«We don't sell our network. But it naturally comes with it as an added value.»

NZ: All partners at Trusted Board Advisors have built excellent professional networks over the course of their careers. We don’t advertise this, but it naturally adds silent value when you engage our services.

 

Your area of responsibility, Mr. Hirzel, isn’t changing fundamentally; however, you’ll be working even more broadly with your new colleagues. Nicolas Ziegler, you’re moving from a global corporation to a boutique consulting firm—is the «culture shock» greater in that case?

NZ: (laughs) That’s not a shock at all. It was—and still is—wonderful. My work at the company you mentioned was done. At the same time, I didn’t want to just sit back; I wanted to take another step forward. My experience at ABB has been an asset: effective reputation management is only possible through collaboration across various departments, as we’ve already discussed. However, many corporations are organized along strictly functional lines, which makes an integrated approach difficult. Especially now, when there’s a trend toward greater separation rather than integration of areas of responsibility, I see the need to encourage companies to adopt a holistic approach. I’m an advocate of integrated work and would now like to use my experience to help other companies adopt this approach.

 

The term “transformation” has come up several times already today. Which aspects of transformation do you currently consider to be the most significant? Are your clients most concerned with geopolitical, economic, or technological changes?

NZ: The question of what the most significant drivers of change are is a valid one, and it would be tempting to weigh in on the matter. But you’ll always find someone who disagrees—Person A places greater emphasis on artificial intelligence, Person B is concerned about the international order, and Person C sees regulatory problems in the financial markets. Who are we to judge which of these people is «right»? It makes more sense to look at the common denominator: change is already a permanent state of affairs. In the past, you stood on the bank of a river—the transformation was the bridge—and once you reached the other side, you could confidently forget about the bridge. Today, the banks have receded into the distance and you’re drifting on the water—transformation is your raft. That’s the metaphor I’d use. How do you steer the raft? How agile are you when rapids appear around the next bend? Can you handle bad weather? And with all the unexpected events demanding your attention: Do you still keep an eye on the compass and the goal you’re pursuing, despite everything?

 

Mr. Hirzel, you just mentioned that people tend to push unpleasant realities aside. Have your counterparts in the business community already come to realize that, in some cases, radical change is becoming the new normal?

AH: When I explain our model to companies, there’s often a moment of pause—not driven by fear or concern, but … a moment of reflection on the implications for their business. However, it’s rare for someone to completely disagree with what I’m saying; after all, it’s not overly complicated. (laughs). Our approach is a logical response to complex challenges that require a holistic solution—and this logic becomes clear when we talk pragmatically about the future.

I have to ask one last time: Why—excuse me—are you putting yourself through this? Why don't you just let change be change? After all, what you're doing undeniably takes a lot of energy.

AH: I’ve faced many challenges and have often been able to help find solutions. These successes motivate me. My main driving force is the desire to help and make things better. I can’t just walk away when I see that I can make a positive difference. It’s not that I have a “helper syndrome” (laughs), but I feel a strong obligation to use my knowledge and skills to find better solutions. Sometimes I take on projects even though my schedule doesn’t really allow for it, simply because I’m convinced that I can provide effective support. That might sound like a compulsion, but for me it’s actually freedom—the freedom to use my skills for the benefit of others.

 

While others solve puzzles at the dining table, you piece together the components needed to solve economic problems—and are delighted when they come together to form a coherent picture.

Yes, you could put it that way.

 

And the new company adds the pieces from its partners to the big puzzle—which makes new images possible.

I don’t want to miss any opportunities. Trusted Board Advisors isn’t something that just suddenly popped into my head—and then I made it happen. Rather, over the past few years, I’ve increasingly found myself thinking: «Something needs to be done here! That’s where the problem lies! That’s where change is needed!» I’ve had this feeling more and more, even in areas outside my core competencies. With years of business experience, you learn what works and what doesn’t; you become increasingly able to identify where there’s still room for improvement. The partners at Trusted Board Advisors help implement these improvements at a level that a single person could never achieve on their own.

«How do you steer the raft? How agile are you when rapids appear around the next bend?»

NZ: At first glance, our approach may seem exclusive, but thanks to our team’s diverse experiences and backgrounds, we bring strong, strategic implementation expertise to the table. Although we often operate at the senior management level, it is crucial that we know the end result of our consulting work and understand how important effective communication is in achieving it. Ultimately, it is effective brand communication and strategic balance in communication that determine the success of our approach and make it a reality. Or, to put it a bit more casually: We don’t «just» advise—we can also put into words what we do. And we know exactly what will happen if someone follows our advice.

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Aloys Hirzel has made a name for himself in strategic corporate communications and is regarded as the founder of legal communications consulting in Switzerland. Over the past few decades, as a founding partner and senior counselor of the internationally active Trimedia Group and later of Hirzel.Neef.Schmid,Consultants, he has advised numerous companies on strategic projects—including complex acquisitions, IPOs, and repositioning efforts—as well as in challenging crisis and issue management situations.

Dr. Nicolas Ziegler is a recognized leader in the fields of brand management and strategic business development. Through his ability to foster innovative growth and provide guidance in uncertain times, he has had a significant impact on major global companies in the retail and industrial technology sectors. Over the years, he has successfully led major brand transformations, digital transformation initiatives, and talent development projects.

Katharina Mäder: Andy, why did you decide to join Swiss Marketing?

Andy Wild: My professional career has been marked by great versatility. I have worked in communications and advertising agencies and in marketing departments at international companies, where I led teams; I shared my expertise with marketing and communications professionals; and I developed training courses for SAWI in the field of trade shows and events. This has allowed me to gain a wealth of experience in the field of education. Through my active involvement in the industry association, I saw an opportunity to contribute my accumulated experience to the marketing and sales community. I was also drawn to the challenge of taking on responsibility for the financial management of an association.

«We would very much like to see the clubs foster a greater sense of unity within the association.»

 

What motivated you to get involved with Swiss Marketing?

Working with President Andreas Balazs as a sparring partner was very interesting and motivating. His approach to handling challenging situations, his support of me as managing director, and his solution-oriented approach were very impressive. In addition, working with my team, the Central Board, and the 20 clubs has always been enriching.

 

What were the highlights of the past five years?

I have achieved my goal of restoring Swiss Marketing’s sense of pride, and I can also say that I have fostered a greater sense of unity among the clubs, in the educational sector, among the staff, and on the board—and I continue to feel this sense of unity time and again. In addition, the association is constantly seeking new sources of revenue so that it can continue to invest in the further development of training programs. For example, I was a co-initiator in the founding of the association’s own company, suxxess.org ag, which ensures the efficient organization of exams. We also launched the Senior Marketing Professional competency platform in Switzerland. Laying the groundwork and helping to develop the new strategy—including new membership models and the «one Services» for the clubs—as well as adapting the bylaws to meet the current challenges facing the association and the clubs was an exciting process in which I played an active role … and a special moment was always delivering the laudatory speech at the graduation ceremonies for SIB graduates and offering my congratulations at the leadership level celebration at the Hotel Jungfrau in Interlaken.

Clubs vs. Education: Challenges at Swiss Marketing

We will continue to need face-to-face interactions across different generations in the future. Regional focus is very important, and this is only possible within clubs. Although a regional focus can also lead to fragmentation, it is important that the national and international networks remain active. Thus, our collaboration with the EMC (European Marketing Confederation) is fundamental. With campus.swiss, we have launched a skills platform that, among other things, offers training courses in various fields for SMEs. We now need to integrate this into the new strategy and position it appropriately for our partners.

 

What are your hopes for the future of the association?

Strengthening a sense of unity within the association would be a major priority for the clubs. In other words, all for one—one for all. We need to provide central support to the regional clubs and evolve into a national association. Unfortunately, the Swiss “backyard mentality” is deeply ingrained in some clubs. But the next generation of members will embrace the vision of a national club. They want authentic communication—both nationally and internationally, face-to-face and virtually—which will shape the network and the association.

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This article is a contribution from Swiss Marketing, an m&k partner association.

m&k: Wies Bratby, the communication framework you developed to coach women in their careers is called the WINning Program. What exactly do women gain from it?

As Bratby said: There’s a story behind the name. Let me back up a bit. About nine years ago, I began to realize that women need help advancing their careers. I’d known this for a while through my work as an HR manager and had heard it from friends, but I’d never really done anything about it. And then one day I woke up and thought: I want to make a serious commitment to supporting women. First, I posted a request on Facebook and asked my female friends if they wanted to learn how to negotiate successfully. Thirty women signed up. So I divided them into different groups and coached them for six weeks. I had just one request as «payment.» I asked them to suggest a better name than «Women In Negotiation,» or WIN for short. I’d come up with that name shortly before my Facebook post, but I didn’t particularly like it. Then, six weeks later, they said, “No, we love it—WIN should stay.” They were referring to both the name and the program. So I had to make a decision: Either I really launch this venture, or I’ll let my dream slip away and stay in my job. I was afraid of starting my own business.

 

What exactly scared you?

I thought: Me? Start my own business? No way! My brother—he’s an entrepreneur. Other people can do that: start a business and make it a success. Not me. I was a lawyer and an HR manager; I worked for companies. But then I realized that no one else was supporting women in their careers this way. So I had to start the company myself, even though I have two young children at the international school, a mortgage, and lots of other expenses (laughs).

 

You've been successful with WIN for years now. You say that standing up for yourself is a life skill that anyone can learn and that changes your life. Could you be a little more specific?

Successfully standing up for the things you want, need, and deserve is a skill, not an innate talent that some people have and others don't. You can learn it, just like you can learn any other skill. And yes, it will absolutely change your life if you master it!

 

How do you help the women who participate in your program?

Well, in two ways: I give them the tools they need to steer their careers and negotiate on their own behalf. And I help them develop the mindset that allows them to set high goals and have big dreams. That mindset—their attitude toward their career—is what really matters.

 

How do you define "mindset"?

Many women struggle with their self-esteem and don’t believe they are capable of achieving great things. They set their career goals too low. My special skill lies in recognizing people’s potential. And more importantly, I know how to help them see it for themselves and truly make it their own. I’m good at unlocking their potential so they can fully realize what they’re capable of achieving in this world. Only when they truly embrace this will they continue to grow. Only then will they dare to switch to a different industry or apply for the position that’s two levels above their current title. Do you just want a little more money? Do you just want a small raise? Of course, I can help you with that. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But there’s so much more that’s possible …

 

Why do women actually need negotiation coaching?

Well, it’s no harder for women to negotiate than it is for men. Research shows that, on average, women are better negotiators than men. But only when they’re negotiating on behalf of or for others: for their team, their boss, their partner, or their children. Helping others is built into our system. As women, we’re raised to care for others and serve them. And we’ve internalized this narrative—we believe it ourselves! So when you have to negotiate for your team, your partner, or whoever, it fits right into this pattern. It feels natural, it feels good—it’s something we’re good at. But when we have to stand up for ourselves, we feel uncomfortable, because that contradicts everything we’ve been taught. And that’s why women say, «Oh, I can’t negotiate—I’m not good at that.» It’s a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because if you believe you can’t do something, you won’t do it, right? But then you don’t gain any experience, so you’ll never get good at it. Unless you change the belief that you’re bad at standing up for yourself, or that it’s wrong to do so. And that’s exactly where the WINning program comes in.

 

What is the first step toward overcoming this narrative?

My thinking has always been: We should take advantage of the fact that we’re very good at standing up for others. But we should also use that to our own advantage. So we need to change our mindset and get comfortable with doing for ourselves what we’re so good at doing for others. That’s an internal process. We also need to change the way we present ourselves throughout the entire negotiation process. And now we’re back to strategies and techniques, because we can’t use the same strategies and techniques that men generally use. Society doesn’t like it when we act like men. If a man comes across as confident, a woman is perceived as arrogant. If a man displays leadership qualities, the same behavior in a woman is considered bitchy. So we have to change the way we communicate and behave based on our gender. It’s difficult to get this right, but it’s something you can practice. And… the biggest hurdle is the internal process of daring to speak up for yourself.

 

You've coached over 500 women in the last seven years. Can you give us a few examples? Are there any highlights or stories that have stuck with you?

You’re asking for the impossible (laughs)! I love all my ladies and their personal stories. But there’s one thing I can say. I talk a lot about financial gains through good negotiation. That’s why many people think money is so important to me. The average pay raise for my WINner clients is 93%. I share many success stories from my clients because I want to inspire other women to see what’s possible. But anyone who knows me knows that I’m not interested in money. I live for the freedom it gives you—the freedom from toxic bosses, from toxic relationships, the freedom to say «screw you,» to change your circumstances, and to set your own course. The freedom to say: I’m going to do this or that with this one short life I’ve been given. The opportunity to make this a reality is what excites me.

 

One or two examples, please (I can't help but laugh).

Yes, well. For her. One example is a woman who was in an unhealthy relationship. And because of the work we did in the program, she realized that she’d be better off living in a small apartment without him, just with her child. I consider taking that mental step a success. And then, of course, she also has the financial means to take that step. She chose herself, her health, her well-being, and the health and well-being of her child… That means a great deal to me. Or a client who made it possible for her parents, who live in India, to retire because, after a promotion and a substantial raise, she was earning more money each month and could support her parents. Or the woman who had immigrated to Germany with her husband but had just divorced him and urgently needed a job to be able to stay. She had written 400 job applications, and even though she was highly educated and had been very successful professionally in her home country, she wasn’t invited for a single interview. After three weeks in the program, she had her breakthrough and signed a new contract! Hallelujah… I live for these successes!

 

So the program offers more than just negotiation skills?

Yes, much more. When we started, the focus was really on salary negotiation strategies. But I quickly learned that, as a woman, there’s much more at stake in career negotiations if you want to be successful. The entire process leading up to the negotiation: What are the expectations for the position itself? How confident are women that they’re the right person for the job? How effectively have they communicated that they’re the right person…? All of this influences how well they perform in the subsequent negotiation. So it’s not just about behavior or the words spoken at the negotiating table. But let me also make this clear: Every woman has different needs. Some want to learn how to negotiate their salary, while others want to completely revamp their careers. Some want to learn how to stop letting their boss belittle them, while others need clarity on what their next career steps might be. And, of course, your needs may change over time. Perhaps you wanted a raise, but then you realize you could also take on a more interesting role, so that you ultimately aim for a completely new, more significant position—and, naturally, demand a higher salary for it. Or you came to negotiate, but in the end, you turned your whole life upside down… The program supports all of that. The communication framework I’ve developed encompasses all of this; it’s precisely this work on mindset that enables women to reach a new level.

 

Over the years, they have built a strong community.

Community is an incredibly important part of the program. From day one, my WINners meet other amazing women who come from all over the world, live in very different places, work in various industries, have different roles, and occupy different positions in the hierarchy. What they all have in common is that everyone in this community—our sisterhood—is ultimately striving toward the same goal: Where and how can I do my best work? The realization that you’re not alone on this journey—that you can learn from others, practice with others, and are surrounded by this strong sisterhood that catches you when you’re struggling and celebrates your successes with you… there’s nothing better. Of all the things I’ve done in my career, I’m most proud of founding this sisterhood.

 

What is the program's USP? There are many female trainers out there.

I think what makes the WINning program so successful is that it focuses on leveraging the differences between men and women in terms of their communication and negotiation styles, and that it places a strong emphasis on mindset, which enables women to achieve far more than if the focus were solely on strategies and techniques. In that sense, it goes far beyond standard career coaching—and far beyond communication training as well. I’d like to underscore this by returning to the beginning of our conversation. The reason I took the plunge and started my own company was that, from day one, I was convinced there was a real need for this work. To this day, I’ve truly never met a woman—and I meet amazing women all the time!—who couldn’t use some support in this specific area. They’re fabulous at what they do; they just need help working on their careers—not just within them. We simply help them put the final piece of the puzzle in place so they themselves can reap the benefits of all the value they provide.

 

Do you see improvements in the areas of diversity, equity, and inclusion?

I really hope things get better. I always say that I’m working on making myself redundant. But if I’m completely honest, I think there’s so much fluff—hot air and whitewashing—when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion in companies. So many companies pretend that these issues are important to them. On International Women’s Day and at Gay Pride events, they wave flags. But when they’re called upon to back up their words with actions and take real, tangible steps toward greater equality, they go very quiet. According to the World Economic Forum, it will take 131 years to achieve gender equality worldwide. Think about that. We can’t wait that long—we’ll all be dead! Our daughters will be dead! That’s why I believe that while it’s important for governments and corporate boards to advocate for change, women must also take control of their own lives and stand up for themselves. We can’t rely on others when it comes to our well-being.

«Of all the things I've done in my career, I'm most proud of founding this community for women.»

 

You told me that men would also like to benefit from your program. Why are you so strict about only sharing this knowledge with women?

Much of what I teach revolves around having meaningful conversations that then develop into meaningful relationships; we practice active listening. These communication skills would also benefit many men—that’s certainly true. The reason I focus exclusively on women and people who identify as women is that there’s already a lot of material out there aimed at men. The vast majority of books published on these topics are written by white men for white men. And research clearly shows that things work differently for women. I haven’t found any books that focus specifically on women and negotiation. That’s why I’ve decided to work exclusively with women. Besides, I AM a woman—I’m just sticking to my own path, haha! I’m also very mindful of the sense of safety and sacredness that arises when only women are present. The atmosphere changes dramatically when men join the discussion—I always notice this when I lead separate workshops and there are a few men in attendance.

 

Could you give us an idea of how the 10-week program works—online, live calls with the community, one-on-one coaching, etc.?

Sure! Over the course of ten weeks, I’ll teach you the entire communication framework I’ve developed—from clarifying what your next step should be, to actively shaping the role itself together with the company that’s lucky enough to hire you, all the way through to the corresponding negotiations. I’ll do this through online lectures that you can attend in your free time. You’ll also complete exercises that tailor this theoretical framework to your specific situation—which means you can use it again and again whenever you’re planning your next career move. We focus heavily on mindset work, which is a bit harder to explain. This work thoroughly prepares the women for our one-on-one coaching sessions, during which we discuss the situation in depth and develop a step-by-step plan for the important conversations and negotiations they’ll need to have. And every week, we hold two group sessions where we answer questions, do role-playing exercises (I place great value on practice!), and share our successes. So by the end of the ten weeks, the women have either achieved all their immediate goals or have everything they need to achieve them in the near future. And we don’t say goodbye after the ten weeks—instead, we welcome them into our fantastic alumni group, a magnificent network and sisterhood. A group that still meets with me every month to continue advancing their careers. Sure, it’s intense, but what isn’t? If you want real results, you have to put in the work.

 

You and your husband are raising two daughters. Do you think the girls are growing up in a better, more just world? Will they have a say in shaping the public discourse?

I have a great deal of trust in my daughters. I like the way they behave, the way they stand up for themselves and their wishes. That’s partly thanks to me, too. Every day, I model equality for them; I’m a role model for them by taking myself seriously and taking them seriously. I love it when they «give me a good argument»—that is, when they really think about how they can convince me with their reasoning. The driving force behind raising our children—which I do together with my husband—is quite simple. I want our children to be brave and kind. That’s what matters to me: being brave and kind. The world needs more people who speak their minds and do difficult things. And we need more kindness. I want my girls to be the ones who stand up for a child who’s being bullied in their class. Courageous and kind. That’s what the world needs more of.

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The «Women in Negotiation» Company», founded by Dutchwoman Wies Bratby, coaches women who want to take their careers to the next level.

 

m&k: Dominic Alldis, your father was—to quote his obituary in *The Guardian*—one of the «greatest British choral conductors of his generation.» Your mother was a gifted violinist. Was your career as a musician, conductor, composer, and keynote speaker «predestined» as a result?

Dominic Alldis: You’re right: I grew up in a family where music was everywhere. It was… completely natural for me to look for my place in such an environment. But as a boy, I never «planned» to become a musician. The classical training I received, the piano lessons—all of that was great. But it took me a few years to consider music as a career option, and perhaps even more importantly: I had to «discover» jazz. I was already a teenager when I realized that there was so much more out there than the classical canon I was familiar with—and with jazz, a musical inclination turned into a passion, perhaps even an obsession. You need that if you want to make a living from music.

 

Did you have a «jazz epiphany»—or was it more of a gradual process?

My mother introduced me to the genre. For example, she’d play Oscar Peterson’s interpretations of Cole Porter’s compositions at home—and I thought: Wow! (laughs) That swing, that rhythm… It was downright exhilarating for me. My father liked jazz, too, but he was nowhere near as enthusiastic as my mother. However, he did contribute to the last record Duke Ellington ever recorded. And that’s really «as jazz as it gets,» isn’t it?

 

How did your fascination with jazz turn into «something more»?

At first, I simply tried to get the same sound out of my piano that I heard on my mother’s records. But I didn’t have the technical skills for that at first—as I said, I’d grown up with classical music—so I had to improvise. In a way, that’s also the beauty of jazz: it can be an enormous challenge, but it can also be incredibly liberating. I practiced and practiced, and then, when I was 20, I went to Paris and immersed myself in the jazz scene there—that was my «point of no return,» one of the best experiences of my life. I might have stayed there forever, but at some point I desperately needed money (laughs), so I started teaching other pianists. I began teaching them what I, too, had had to learn: how to hold your own in jazz even with a classical background.

 

In addition, you began writing your own pieces—and trained to become a conductor. Today, you can lead small jazz combos as well as entire symphony orchestras; you do both on a regular basis. As a layperson, I wonder: Do you sometimes find it difficult to «switch» between genres?

You know, I still teach piano; there, I have to switch back and forth between genres all the time anyway … So I think I can handle it relatively smoothly. (laughs) I’d probably even go so far as to say that a «dual focus» has shaped my career—that the blend of the structured world of classical music and the spontaneity of jazz has had a decisive influence on much of what I do.

 

Another reason I asked you for this interview is that—as we briefly mentioned—you offer not only extraordinary keynote speeches, but also workshops and seminars: you bring music into companies. Together with small groups of musicians—and even entire orchestras—you demonstrate live how art and business are connected. How did you come up with such an idea?

Well, that’s another thing I hadn’t planned. (laughs) In 1997 or 1998, a friend who works as a management trainer approached me—I was already holding a position at the Royal Academy of Music in London at the time, and he wanted me to speak with some executives at Cartier about topics like creativity, improvisation, and group dynamics. So I did; I really enjoyed it and got great feedback. So I thought: Maybe there’s an interesting niche here?! I founded «Music & Management,» the company through which I offer the services you mentioned. And then, fortunately, my first major clients came to me—for example, the communications group WPP.

 

That must have been back when Sir Martin Sorrell was head of WPP … He never struck me as a particular lover of the arts during our conversations …

You’re entitled to that impression, but he and his leadership team—regardless of their individual musical preferences, which I don’t wish to speculate on—immediately recognized that working with us would benefit their employees. By «us,» I mean, of course, the musicians who kindly supported my program, and myself. WPP was also the first client to commission me to plan and conduct several week-long sessions around the globe, driven by the conviction that engaging with music «does» something essential and important for employees.

«I went to Paris and immersed myself in the jazz scene there—that was my »point of no return.’”

 

What is a session like?

All projects are tailored to the specific needs of the clients, so it’s difficult to give a general answer to this question. But I can give you two examples: If I have the opportunity to perform with a symphony orchestra—and we have a little time—then I can talk at length about leadership. And I can show the audience: When I, as a conductor, do this or that, it results in this or that sound—if I do something else, the orchestra simply sounds different. There’s, of course, the cliché of the very extravagant, eccentric conductor who imposes his interpretations and his will on the orchestra, but that’s… outdated; just as a «top-down» leadership style in companies no longer fits our times. Conductors focused on true effectiveness—just like smart business leaders—enable the people they work with to achieve peak performance and reach their full potential. They see themselves as servants of the group. This is perfectly illustrated by an orchestra.

 

And what about the second example?

If someone wants to talk not just about leadership, but primarily about improvisation and creativity, it might be worth considering whether we should invite a jazz combo instead of a full orchestra. We can then—for example—talk about technical excellence, active listening, and the courage to take risks and be flexible. We can also explore how best to build on others’ ideas, how to step forward or take a back seat at the right moment, and how to convey our own point of view and perspectives without completely derailing others’ contributions. (laughs)

«The idea of the flamboyant, eccentric conductor who imposes his will on the orchestra … is outdated.»

 

It's surprising just how many parallels there seem to be between music and the «working world.».

If you think about it for a while, it’s actually not that surprising. After all, it’s people who run companies, and it’s people who make music—or listen to it. That’s the first and probably most important parallel. The dynamics we’ve discussed and can compare are all part of our human condition, no matter where we are or what we’re doing. And there’s something else I like about combining music and business—even if it might sound a bit melodramatic: music reminds us what it means to be human. Imagine an audience that has just sat through a four-hour management training session and is then told that next on the program is a conductor and an orchestra… That sometimes meets with skepticism. (laughs) So people come into the room or auditorium where we’ve set up, take their seats—there’s some small talk—and then suddenly they hear the opening notes of Beethoven’s Fifth. Instant silence. Emotions. For some, perhaps even memories. It’s really great to witness that time and again. It’s as if the famous light bulb goes off, as if the thought «That’s right, there was something there!» pops into their heads. And: The people in the audience share this moment with their colleagues, which also does wonders for that much-talked-about «team building.» You know, I’m sometimes asked if I’m worried that my workshops might see less demand in this era of remote work and supposedly more pressing topics—the rise of AI, for example. But I think the opposite will actually be the case.

 

Why?

The issues we face as a result of artificial intelligence are existential. Of course, companies are now increasingly focused on which tools they need to purchase and which skills they need to train their employees in. But the questions facing those employees—and ultimately their managers as well—run much deeper: right to the root of what actually makes us who we are. Or who we believe ourselves to be. As a company, there’s little you can do that strengthens your workforce’s self-confidence more than actively engaging with art—especially music. After all, this is something that machines can imitate brilliantly, but… when it comes to creation, they’re still no match for us. I don’t claim to be an expert on AI—I’m far from it—but more and more tech companies are among my clients. There, I see that during retreats, people spend days discussing what role the «human factor» will even play in the age of hyper-digitalization. What do you think happens when we end up «making music»? The question of the «human factor» is answered immediately and nonverbally.

 

A few years ago, we featured Duncan Wardle—Disney’s former head of innovation—in our magazine. He explained that when he gives keynote speeches, many people in the audience hesitate to describe themselves as «creative»—they’re unsure whether they have even the slightest creative potential. Do you experience something similar?

Absolutely. That’s why my workshops, lectures, and sessions always encourage participants to see themselves as artists. I want them to develop a mindset in which creativity becomes a natural and essential aspect of professional success. I described earlier how, as a teenager, I tried to play jazz pieces, how I had to experiment to see what worked… and what sounded terrible. I share that story, and then I say: There’s nothing—absolutely nothing!—wrong with trying something new and having things go in a direction you didn’t anticipate. So what? Then you just try again. How are you supposed to stray from the beaten path if you never dare to take a step in an unknown direction?

«When you think about it, the parallels between music and the ‚working world‘ aren't surprising.»

 

When you describe it all like that, it almost sounds as if your work also has a therapeutic component.

Well, I can’t really say. (laughs) There are some very, very smart people with whom you can have in-depth conversations about the psychology of music… and the effect it has on the mind. I’ve never researched that, so I’d rather not say too much about it. I can say with certainty, however, that my work is therapeutic for me—because it makes me happy! I consider it a great privilege to interact with such a diverse range of people all over the world. The other day, after an event in Dallas, a man approached me: two meters tall, dressed like a cowboy. And he said, in a very deep voice: «I’ve never done this before, but after today, I’d like to take my children to a classical concert.» He couldn’t have given me a nicer compliment.

 

How do you actually keep your own creativity alive?

That’s another area where the blend of classical and jazz helps: For me, creativity begins with improvisation. After our conversation, I’ll probably head over to my grand piano. Then I’ll start playing, say, a piece by Bach. There, I might discover a chord or a phrase that leads me to stray from the sheet music—so I see where that takes me. That’s how I try to play creatively; that’s how I try to live creatively. And so far, it’s working out pretty well.

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Dominic Alldis is a British jazz pianist, composer, conductor, and arranger. Through his father, the popular choir director John Alldis, he was exposed to classical music at an early age—and received a corresponding education. He has participated in numerous musical productions and has an extensive discography; he teaches improvisation at the Royal Academy of Music in London and is a globally sought-after keynote speaker. What sets him apart: His speeches and workshops are usually accompanied by live demonstrations (ranging up to the use of full symphony orchestras).

Alexandra Folwarski’s desk stands where meat used to be displayed. The butcher shop’s interior is long gone. Instead of hearty sausages, the light-filled rooms in Vienna’s Ottakring district are filled with screens and magazines: Welcome to Folwarski’s media studio, home to her self-founded publishing house, «Flaneur Media.».

Five years ago, this dedicated media professional launched «Wiener Flaneur» as a community platform for sustainable living—initially just for her own district, Ottakring, and later for all of Vienna. The platform consists of a website, social media channels such as Instagram and TikTok, as well as a magazine: it is published four times a year with a circulation of 115,000 copies. «Our core topics are always the same, but the way we present the content varies depending on the channel,» explains Folwarski. «Each media channel has its own strengths and helps us reach readers wherever they happen to be.» At a coffeehouse, for example: «Anyone who wants to relax with a cup of coffee likes to bring along their newspaper or magazine,» says the Flaneur Media founder. It doesn’t matter if they’re old or young.

«Anyone who wants to relax at a coffeehouse likes to bring their newspaper along—whether they're old or young.»

Folwarski cannot confirm that her age group, Generation Y, as well as the subsequent Generation Z, hardly read anymore and prefer to consume only short videos. While sales figures for print media are declining as they compete with online offerings, print is far from dead. In her editorial office, as well as at the traditional *Wiener Zeitung*, where she heads the «Media Innovation Lab» department, she likes to discuss the question: «What is it about print media that we actually find so cool?» Most often, «Bravo» magazine and its love stories come to mind. Or the crossword puzzle as a format that offers fun and entertainment.

Study Confirms Assessments

A study by Ad Alliance confirms Folwarski’s findings: The marketing service provider surveyed more than 600 readers in the German market for a recent study. The result: 78 percent of respondents view reading magazines and newspapers as «me-time»—that is, a deliberate break taken to feel good. This is also confirmed by 70 percent of 14- to 29-year-olds: While reading print media, young people explicitly set their smartphones aside, partly because they’re seeking a break from the hustle and bustle of social media, where one emotion follows another in rapid succession. With magazines, on the other hand, they immerse themselves in thematic worlds and let their minds wander—according to the study’s interpretation.

Neither Bullying Nor Hate Speech

Stefan Wabel has also observed this usage pattern. «Of course, young readers no longer flip through print publications every day, as they used to,» notes the managing director of the Swiss Media Publishers Association in Zurich. «Gen Z does, however, appreciate print media, partly because it offers reliable journalistic information free of fake news and hate speech,» he explains. According to his figures, the weekly publications «Schweizer Familie» (published by Tamedia), «Schweizer Illustrierte» (Ringier Axel Springer Switzerland), and the women’s magazine «Annabelle» (Medienart Annabelle) reach between 10 and 20 percent of their readership in the 14- to 34-year-old demographic. «The same applies to daily and Sunday newspapers,» adds the association head. According to the media expert, special-interest and trade magazines also remain popular reading material among younger people because they cater to the specific interests of certain target groups. These include, for example, the new cycling magazine «Grupetto,» which is published four times a year by «Amici della Bici» in Zurich: The website «gruppetto-magazin.ch» features news about cycling—and a countdown that counts down the time until the next issue’s release with almost dramatic flair. For Wabel, this is exemplary: «Print publishers should use all available channels to promote their own offerings.»

Reaching young people—no matter how

The Federal Association of Digital Publishers and Newspaper Publishers (BDZV) in Berlin is also committed to conveying the value of trustworthy and contextually relevant news to young audiences, regardless of the format. «The goal is to provide young people with news content in the format they prefer, within the environment they prefer,» says spokeswoman Anja Pasquay. In the year marking the 75th anniversary of the German Basic Law—and thus also of the article guaranteeing freedom of expression and freedom of the press—the BDZV, together with partners from the media and academia, has proclaimed the «Year of News.» Through news camps and «social news desks,» they aim to raise young people’s awareness of reliable information. «Given the vast amounts of fake news that bombard young people—for example, via TikTok and other major platforms—and which, according to studies, they unfortunately all too often accept unfiltered, the importance of this task cannot be overstated,» says Pasquay.

Right in the thick of it, not just on the sidelines

However, it’s important not to distance yourself from trendy social media channels, but rather to be right in the thick of things. The business magazine «Business Punk,» published by «Weimer Media» in Tegernsee near Munich, shows how to get there. While the print edition comes out every two months, there’s something happening on social media every day. «On Instagram alone, we have around 70,000 followers,» says Andrea-Alexa Kuszák, the Chief Marketing Officer responsible for the publisher’s expansion strategy. «Business Punk» targets people under 40 who identify as creatives, strategists, and decision-makers. With events like «Start-up Pitches» and «Fuck-up Nights,» the publication aims to set itself apart from others in its segment.

«Print professionals should use all available channels to promote their services.»

Incidentally, Kuszák clarifies that this provocative writing style has nothing to do with the editorial team trying to curry favor with readers. For her—just as it is for innovation consultant and media professional Alexandra Folwarski—age has little to do with media preferences. Rather, it’s a mindset. At «Business Punk,» this mindset has been defined since its founding 15 years ago by a flamboyant lifestyle and a desire to break with tradition. «The joy of the new clearly takes precedence over the fear of change. This works less and less within traditional structures,» she criticizes. «That’s why so many people are now seeking a path to self-employment or want to start a new business—driven by the thought: What if I did everything differently today?»

Established Structures

Media companies should also ask themselves this question in order to make their products future-proof. This is also the advice Folwarski gives when she consults in Vienna on formats for young audiences. «Larger publishers, in particular, often have no idea just how much expertise and knowledge they already have among their employees,» she says. The problem, she observes, is that younger colleagues—who know how to connect with readers their own age—aren’t being heard because older employees still call the shots: «Often, the structures are too entrenched to initiate transformation processes.»

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INTERVIEW

«Magazines are more than just printed words»

José Redondo-Vega, founder and CEO of the creative agency Taos, advises companies on media strategies and develops customized content formats.

m&k: Print media circulation figures are steadily declining—mainly because young people are reading less. How can magazines and newspapers be made more appealing to Gen Z and Gen Y?

José Redondo-Vega: Young readers’ interest in exciting topics remains as strong as ever. The challenge, however, is that they are now active across many different channels. Media professionals must respond by presenting their content in various formats—for online, social media, or events. In other words: Content no longer appears primarily as text, but also in the form of images and audio. My advice to media companies: Set aside your pursuit of perfection and dare to experiment with young-oriented platforms like TikTok.

 

Should media professionals—including in their print publications—tailor their language more closely to their young target audience?

I don’t think revamping content is any better an idea than introducing special children’s sections in newspapers. After all, older people don’t want to be addressed as «seniors» either. It’s better to present content in a way that’s engaging for younger audiences as well. My 24-year-old daughter recently subscribed to the weekly newspaper *Zeit* for her college shared apartment, which she divides up among her roommates based on their individual interests. Media outlets could take cues from this behavior by, for example, offering a newspaper’s sports section as a separate product rather than sticking to the traditional sales model.

 

How will print journalism evolve?

Print stands for high quality—now more than ever. High quality doesn’t necessarily mean glossy pages, but rather good ideas and compelling topics that are executed perfectly, from the language used down to the very last comma. Readers look forward to this pleasure, which only magazines and newspapers can continue to provide.

m&k: Mick Ebeling, more than a decade ago, your career took a remarkable turn: You turned your back on your Hollywood production company and became an «inventor in the service of a good cause.» And—as you’ve said yourself—you’re always driven by the desire to «make the impossible possible.» Where does this desire come from?

Mick Ebeling: That’s funny—I’ve actually been thinking about that a lot over the past few months. I grew up in Arizona—in a pretty average neighborhood, far removed from any kind of «entertainment industry.» My «eye-opening experience,» if you will, was moving to Los Angeles—that’s where I learned what production companies do and founded Fuel, my own company. I was totally fascinated by the fact that anyone in LA could have a crazy idea and then just call people to make it happen. And they’d say, «Sure, we can do that,» even though they didn’t really know what they were getting themselves into. Isn’t that a fantastic mindset? «Just do it»—that became my mantra in my own company… and led to my first innovation project: the “EyeWriter.”.

 

A tool that enabled graffiti artist Tempt One to draw again—even though he was suffering from ALS and was bedridden.

Yes. The «EyeWriter» was way, way outside my comfort zone. Entertainment is one thing, but committing to building a device that lets someone paint with their eyes… you can really only do that if you say yes without having a plan (laughs). But here’s the thing: I simply couldn’t do anything else. Tempt One and I didn’t know each other personally, but I heard his story—and I was obsessed with the idea of giving him back a piece of his quality of life. At the same time, of course, I had my doubts: I’m not an engineer. And I know a lot of creative people who have «imposter syndrome»… I feel the same way. Whenever one of my ideas works out, I think, «You just got lucky for once!»… and not, «Wow, you’re smart!» (laughs) I fought against that with Fuel, I fought against it with the «EyeWriter,» and I also wanted to prove to myself to some extent with «Project Daniel»—which I’m sure we’ll get to—that my self-doubt is unfounded. For me, creativity is always a balance between «That has to be possible!» and «Mick, this is going to blow up in your face!» Maybe that’s a good thing … it keeps you humble (laughs).

«When I moved to Los Angeles, »Just do it' became my mantra—and led to my first innovation project."

I saw a talk you gave that really inspired me. You tell a school class that all you have to do is look back at the past—and then you’ll see that many things that were considered absolutely impossible just a few decades ago are now the norm. This shift in perspective helps you in your work, doesn’t it?

Very much so. Go back two or three decades—back then, the iPhone was considered «impossible.» Today, this technology is completely standard for us. Is that time frame too long for you? My colleague JP and I just analyzed what people have created in the past eleven months alone… simply because we were curious. Among other things, a prototype for a flying car was unveiled; an AI was programmed to interpret whale songs—and a way was found to measure brain waves in such a way that what we today call «mind reading» might one day become possible. These are just a few examples, but they form the core of «Not Impossible Labs,» a movement under which I now group all my projects. Making the seemingly impossible possible is my life’s work, my challenge, my struggle with myself—and for others. At the same time, however, it is neither magic nor speculation, but rather a constant in the evolution of our species.

Let’s talk about your projects. You mentioned the «EyeWriter» and the graffiti artist Tempt One; you also mentioned «Project Daniel,» where you used a 3D printer to create prosthetic arms for a boy in southern Sudan. Your work always starts with individual people—and then you scale it up, right?

Yes, absolutely—that’s one of our guiding principles: «Help one, help many!» That makes it… tangible; it makes it personal. And the barrier to turning away and giving up becomes infinitely higher. Imagine you promise someone that you’ll do everything in your power to help them… you give that person hope—and then one day you call and say, «Sorry, this is probably a bit sudden, and… I did say I’d do it, but… unfortunately, it’s not going to work out after all.» Click. Hang up. What a terrible thought.

«I always want to prove to myself, at least to some extent, that my self-doubt is unfounded.»

«Project Daniel»—your 3D-printed prosthetics for war victims in Sudan—is likely familiar to many of our readers. You’ve received more awards for the idea and its implementation than we can list here. And it was the same there: You said «Yes!» even though you knew very little about prosthetics.

«A little» is a euphemism (laughs). I didn’t know anything at all! And—just like with graffiti artist Tempt One—I’d never spoken to Daniel; I didn’t know him. I’d only heard about him—knew that he lived in a refugee camp… and that he needed help. He’d been hit by a barrel bomb while herding goats and had lost both arms… In no time at all, I gathered as much expertise as I possibly could, bought a few 3D printers, and flew to Sudan.

 

And then?

Then just about everything that could go wrong did go wrong. We brought 3D printers to Africa, only to find that the plastic inside had already melted due to the ambient temperature before we could even start printing. The translator who was supposed to help us communicate with Daniel never showed up. I could go on and on. But since I don’t speak Arabic, I wouldn’t have been able to explain to Daniel anyway that we couldn’t continue (laughs). So we had to persevere—and in the end, we succeeded.

BDo the things you do require a lot of courage—or a little bit of, let's say, «positive craziness»?

If you see out of the corner of your eye that a fragile object is about to fall—don’t you try to catch it before it does?! That’s instinct; it has nothing to do with courage or craziness. I believe that if we listen to our inner selves, we’ll find not only the instinct to feed ourselves and protect our loved ones… but also the instinct to be kind. To make ourselves useful. To help wherever we can—or at least to try.

 

How do you inspire others to embrace your vision? «Not Impossible Labs» relies heavily on the work of volunteers who contribute their knowledge and time.

By now, our reputation has gotten ahead of us (laughs)—and people are usually interested in working with us on their own initiative. Back in the day, I sometimes felt pretty bold when I’d try to convince someone in a «cold call» to build a machine or use their summer vacation to fly around the world and… work even harder there than at home. Generally speaking, though, if you show people a clear path to getting involved in a good cause, they’ll take that path much more often than you might think. It only gets difficult when you expect them to build the path themselves. That’s why «Not Impossible Labs» lays the foundation—and people take off from there. Often, their enthusiasm rubs off on family members or coworkers, and we end up getting much more help than we originally hoped for. And in the end, it’s not just the lives of the people we help that change—but also the lives of the helpers themselves. Sorry if this sounds a bit cliché, but… purpose brings happiness.

«Making the »impossible' possible is neither magic nor speculation, but a constant in the evolution of our species."

How has your life changed since you gave up your production company and devoted yourself entirely to «hands-on philanthropy»?

Counterquestion: Do you still remember your first car?

 

Of course—it was a black Renault Twingo with a sliding convertible roof. It was the cheapest car the used-car dealer had in his lot.

Here’s a little thought experiment: Imagine we’re sitting together in a taxi—somewhere in the world. We’re looking out the window; maybe we’ve had a long day. I’m watching the people on the sidewalk, the store windows… but then you notice: a Renault pulls up right next to us! Your first car! I’m sure you’d grab me by the shoulder and say, «Hey, Mick, I had a car just like that when I was 18! I absolutely have to tell you all the things I experienced with it…» I, on the other hand, wouldn’t have even noticed the car if you hadn’t pointed it out to me. And… to answer your question from just a moment ago… I’m kind of—I’m both people in this metaphor.

 

You'll have to explain that to me.

In the past, I would have overlooked things that I now—after all the projects we’ve carried out—notice immediately. My awareness of the lives and fates of those around me is much greater. And I discover untapped potential everywhere—truly everywhere. If you do things six, seven, or eight times—things that you yourself initially believe are barely possible—and you somehow manage it every time—then the «imposter syndrome» I mentioned at the beginning does linger in the back of your mind, but mentally you’re still making ever-bigger leaps. Strange that it works that way, isn’t it? (laughs) Basically… now, more than a decade after my giant leap into the unknown, nothing is a priori «off the table» anymore. My trust in the power of creativity, innovation, and love has grown immeasurably—even if that might sound a bit esoteric.

How do you deal with setbacks—especially when you take all your projects so personally?

Should I be honest? Every now and then, it’s really tough to want something so badly and not be able to achieve it—to take setbacks in stride and still keep at it. That can really wear you down. But I’m lucky that, so far, there’s always been someone to remind me of my own principles: «Just do as much as you can—and as well as you can. That’s enough.» We’re all just human beings, not fantasy superheroes. But if we commit ourselves to something—whatever it may be—we can say at the end of our lives: «I made a difference. I made things better.» That’s worth every difficult or grueling moment.

 

You just said that, in principle, no project is «too big» for you. And you’re proving it: Right now, you’re focusing on your venture «Bento» and, through it, on a crisis that affects 50 million Americans.

That’s right. And this crisis is called—somewhat euphemistically—«food insecurity.» This is an outrageous injustice; an invisible epidemic that is rampant in the U.S. There are 50 million people here who don’t have access to three nutritious meals a day. Some days they eat only once; other days, not at all. Yet there’s enough to go around for everyone… so what’s going on here? Let’s get to the heart of the problem: The people we’re talking about here often hold multiple jobs just to stay afloat. They live in households with family members who also work double or triple shifts just to make ends meet. They either don’t have time to go grocery shopping or cut back on food to pay their rent. While there are government assistance programs, they’re heavily stigmatized and therefore underutilized: food stamps, soup kitchens… So we thought: What if someone developed an ordering app that’s directly linked to social services? An app where people affected by food insecurity can order hot meals—and the government pays for them?! Whether they pick up the food at a restaurant or have it delivered to their home, no one sees that they need assistance. The sense of shame disappears.

«Sorry if this sounds a bit cliché, but: Purpose makes you happy.»

You give a graffiti artist back his art, a boy in Sudan his arms … and thousands of people in the U.S. their dignity. Viewed from the outside, it seems as though your work is dedicated above all to «restoration» and «redress.».

I like this perspective. And I want to emphasize: We’re not the only ones doing this. Other people are also fighting hunger, developing prosthetics, and working to alleviate disabilities. The difference, perhaps, is that we actively incorporate storytelling into everything we do—not to make ourselves look better, but to start a movement. It’s not enough to do good if that good remains hidden from the world. We have to encourage the next generation to take action. «Got an idea? Then go for it!»

 

It sounds like you're thinking about your legacy?

Well, at least I’m at an age where I have fewer years ahead of me than behind me. That’s for sure. So I have to think about what—and who—comes «after that.» I was, in effect, born a second time when I moved from rural Arizona to Los Angeles; and without my realizing it, the foundation for my future work was laid at that very moment. What can I do to help young people feel that spark too—to help them realize just how much is possible? That’s the question that’s on my mind right now.

 

And on top of that, you're continuing to work on «Bento»—and you already have some new ideas in the works, right?

Yes, absolutely. We want to focus more on mental health and mitigating cognitive decline—such as in Alzheimer’s disease. At the same time, «Music: Not Impossible» is growing steadily… It’s a project that lets deaf-blind people feel the vibrations of music through wearables. This allows them to experience concerts and festivals just like any other attendee. And—but this brings us back to the point we were just discussing—I travel around the world as much as I can without ruining my personal life (laughs). The keynotes I give cover various topics, but they always convey the same message: One day, neither Mick Ebeling nor «Not Impossible Labs» will exist—either because time has caught up with us, or—and this would make me even happier—because we’re no longer needed. In many ways, I take a pretty liberal approach to the idea of «intellectual property»—if someone wants to further develop one of our inventions, they’re welcome to reach out at any time. And if I point out a problem, but someone comes up with a solution completely independently of «Not Impossible Labs»… fantastic! Because, let’s be honest: The world has seen better days. And in this complex mess, in this clash of powers, we sometimes feel like we can’t make a difference. But that’s an illusion. No one is helpless. Everyone has something to contribute. (Pauses briefly.) Tell me—do you want to keep talking… or do you want to get started and do some good?

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Mick Ebeling is an American inventor, entrepreneur, author, speaker, and philanthropist who specializes in developing technologies for the benefit of humanity. Ebeling is the recipient of the Muhammad Ali Humanitarian of the Year Award and was named one of the «Top 50 Most Creative People» by *Fortune* magazine; is a WIRED Agent of Change, a two-time winner of the SXSW Innovation Award, a three-time winner of the Tribeca Disruptor Award, and the only person in history to have received TIME Magazine’s «Top Invention of the Year» award three times. Ebeling is the founder and CEO of «Not Impossible Labs,» a social-tech incubator whose stated mission is to «create technology for the benefit of humanity.» To date, three companies have spun off from the incubator: «Bento,» «Music: Not Impossible,» and «Vibrohealth.» Ebeling is also the founder of the nonprofit organization «The Not Impossible Foundation.».

In the Outernet entertainment district in central London, Canadian actor Pablo Schreiber stares out from the screen in the role of the life-size super soldier «Master Chief.» The installations on giant screens are perfect for promoting the «Halo» series, which is set in the 26th century. Visitors are enjoying this glimpse into the virtual worlds of the future: they’re using their cell phones to try to capture every moment.

With such displays in public spaces, digital screens are attracting more and more attention. The Outernet is thus literally overshadowing the Internet. This is due in large part to the new abundance of animated formats that are virtually impossible to ignore. Attention is everything these days: As the outdoor advertising company Wall Decaux explains in an analysis, a single person today sees up to 10,000 ads a day. Of those, they might notice just 100. The more eye-catching they are, the better campaigns are remembered. Tobias Marmet has also noticed this: «We’re seeing a growing demand for large formats to offer immersive experiences,» says the digital signage consultant at media technology provider Kilchenmann in Kehrsatz near Bern. In the current advertising year, it’s not just the size but above all the depth of the visual worlds that gives viewers goosebumps. Marmet is certain: «Formats with 3D animations will continue to gain popularity because they make content more dynamic and engaging.» The effect is further enhanced when the animations are produced for LED walls with curved mounting surfaces. With the help of optical techniques, however, three-dimensional “wow” effects can also be achieved on traditional screens—without the need for VR headsets or AR technologies and independent of corner-to-corner screens. An optical sense of depth is created, for example, when the image is divided into different layers that move slightly at different speeds or in different directions. This is known as the parallax effect.

«In addition to their scale, it is above all the depth of these visual worlds that gives you goosebumps.»

The cosmetics brand L’Oréal has already tried this with its Telescopic Lift Mascara: The double-sided brush, which makes lashes appear longer, was to be showcased in a special way using 3D ads. The cosmetics chain Douglas, which operates hundreds of stores across Europe, has also experimented with 3D for its skincare line, one.two.free! «By activating 3D creatives, we were able to generate many times the expected advertising recall,» announced Anna Müller, Team Lead for Display Advertising at Douglas, in a press release.

The art of entertainment is also making its way into the interiors of halls, buildings, and stores. Although the formats are not yet three-dimensional, demand for increasingly larger screens is on the rise. According to digital signage provider Kilchenmann, the most popular display size is currently 55 inches. Retailers and corporate headquarters, especially in their entrance areas, are keen to put on a big show. «Even smaller displays now cover formats that were previously used only with printed content,» explains consultant Tobias Marmet. These classic digital signage screens are used to provide personalized and targeted information at corporate headquarters or even at train stations.

AI makes so many things possible

In the future, artificial intelligence is expected to help make messages even more relevant to individuals. «AI will make it possible to tailor content even more precisely to individual preferences, behavioral patterns, and demographic characteristics,» predicts Marmet. Not only can specific target groups within companies receive hyper-personalized content via the smart supermachine, but so can the general public. Based on rapidly changing factors such as weather, traffic, or current events, AI algorithms are capable of generating content in real time. With this dynamic adaptation, companies can respond even more agilely to their environment and provide relevant information.

Martin Platzer has also observed this trend in his market. For the managing director of Zugkraft in Vienna, which markets approximately 1,400 digital indoor and outdoor screens, AI helps evaluate the visuals used in a campaign. «It’s possible to draw on hundreds of thousands of data points,» he says. In the next step, this intelligent data analysis also facilitates automated booking. After initial skepticism, acceptance of programmatic ad buying has now taken hold: More and more companies are already entrusting their brands’ presence on digital screens to algorithms. Advertisers in Austria, however, are still cautious about 3D advertising. According to Platzer, the greater effort involved in producing the spots and the additional costs for hardware mean that three-dimensional formats have so far been used only sporadically there.

«More and more companies are already leaving their brand presence on digital screens up to algorithms.»

However, those who are willing to invest time, money, and effort will be rewarded. The example of London’s Outernet entertainment district illustrates this point: There, advertising formats on the screens alternate with art installations, which further highlights the message in an attractive context. Because visitors want to share their experiences, the images quickly make their way onto social media via cell phones. This gives advertisers the opportunity to create a seamless and interactive connection between the physical and digital worlds. The reverse is also true: Companies that integrate social media into their digital signage campaigns can extend their customers« online engagement into the offline world. This lends greater authenticity to advertising, according to Marmet. »For example, live feeds from social platforms like Instagram or Twitter can be displayed in real time on digital displays to showcase customer reviews, posts, or images. This not only creates an interactive experience for customers on-site but also fosters community engagement and strengthens brand loyalty.”

Communicating Through Screens

The path toward an increasingly close connection between screens and smartphones involves not only content but also modern technologies. From QR codes and Near Field Communication (NFC) to Bluetooth, viewers can interact with digital signage screens. Martin Platzer believes this influences their purchasing behavior: «In the future, there will be more interactions throughout the customer journey—from home, through the trip to the store, all the way to the point of sale.»

This also applies to the German market. DOOH provider Ströer markets over 7,000 digital screens—both indoor and outdoor—at transportation hubs across Germany, such as train stations, streets, shopping centers, and subway and commuter rail platforms. At retail points of sale, in gyms, and in restaurants, the company also offers approximately 45,000 smaller-format media solutions. Based on identical target audience data, campaigns can be optimized for both digital screens and the—mobile—internet. «Thanks to its granular targeting capabilities, Public Video can also fulfill campaign objectives such as driving foot traffic to stores—for example, by targeting only the immediate vicinity and including a call to action,» promises Managing Director Andreas Heintze, who heads the Public Video division at Ströer. This allows brands to engage with their target audiences—from the beginning to the end of the customer journey.

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REQUESTED

«It's a fine art to entertain through advertising.»

m&K: TV reach is declining, and the target audience is hard to pin down online: Will 2024 be the year of digital screens in public spaces?

Charles Blunier: Abroad, the trend toward making a big splash in public spaces is already evident. In Paris and Milan, renowned fashion brands—from Louis Vuitton to Gucci—are advertising on screens, murals, and giant posters in the city center. At the cathedral, for example, they showcase their latest products on informative and entertaining large posters and screens. Retailers also display their newest products on giant screens in store windows—visible from a distance—to draw passersby into their stores. In London’s Piccadilly Circus, brands are competing to provide even better entertainment and evoke stronger emotions. In Switzerland, we’re not quite there yet by comparison, because the culture and brand worship needed for this simply don’t exist. A mega-poster or screen at Zurich’s Grossmünster or Opera House is unimaginable here.

 

What new forms of advertising are trending?

In recent years, formats have evolved from static to animated. The standard for a good campaign remains the same: it should entertain and enchant with the highest level of aesthetic appeal. This is achieved through 3D animations, which are sometimes nothing more than a computer-generated illusion: Most recently, for example, London’s Big Ben was dressed in a down jacket from The North Face. It was an eye-catcher that JD Sports launched as a video on social media, where it was widely shared and became the talk of the town. This is how companies with smaller budgets can draw attention to themselves.

 

How would you define the difference between digital signage and DOOH?

Digital signage is the big brother of DOOH. While DOOH refers exclusively to the display of advertising content on screens, digital signage has a broader scope. Digital signage is increasingly replacing posters and banners with innovative screens.

m&k: Troy Ruhanen, you’re about to celebrate your 10th anniversary as CEO at TBWA. As a journalist, I naturally have to take you on the obligatory «trip down memory lane»: What was the network like when you first started working there?

Troy Ruhanen We had lost some of our confidence in disruption as a differentiator. But I knew we had to focus on disruption to set ourselves apart from our competitors. So at the beginning of my tenure here, I made it very clear: «TBWA is making disruption the starting point for all our activities again.»” I wanted us to relearn how to radically question the status quo and have the courage to voice unconventional ideas. Fortunately (laughs), that worked very well. Disruption became part of our day-to-day work; it was no longer limited to theoretical workshops. And just under a decade later—in 2023—we achieved the highest revenue TBWA has ever had. This, by the way, in a year when we grew less than we had in the past… so we made even better use of our existing resources. But…

 

… Now you're probably thinking, «But we still have a lot planned.»

Yes (laughs). We have, too. I’d like to see all of us—as a group, but also as an industry—take another bold step forward. Look, in some respects, the past few Cannes festivals have really disappointed me. Not because other agencies have won awards there—I take that in stride—but because the work being honored there is less and less «practical» work for «real» clients.

«We had to learn anew to radically question the status quo.»

You’re bringing up something I hear quite often: agencies work pro bono—for NGOs, for example—and in return are given complete creative freedom. And the advertising that emerges from this freedom is praised by the juries. Cannes, some say, no longer showcases what advertisers do for clients—but merely what advertisers do for creative juries.

I share this view. Of course, I don’t want to completely disparage Cannes, because you won’t find another event in the world where you can experience such a concentration of creativity in such a short time. But I want creativity to be recognized for real client cases that had to hold their own in the market—not for the aesthetics or the complex philosophy behind a pro bono campaign. I’m skeptical when our competitors submit campaigns to Cannes that stand out for their radical ideas—win a Lion for them—and then announce a few months later that they’re no longer working with the company for which they conceived the award-winning campaign. Was that just a ploy to land bigger, more lucrative accounts? We would be more credible as a sector, as an industry, if we were to honestly reflect on what kind of work is truly worthy of an award.

 

Have customers become too hesitant, too cautious to get excited about more unconventional campaigns?

We’re seeing a kind of wave-like pattern: Before the COVID-19 pandemic, there were conservative clients, but there were also clients who demanded excellent, radical creativity. During the pandemic, there was a sense of great uncertainty—and enormous conservatism across the entire client base. There was no long-term thinking about growth through disruption; the focus was on immediate performance and conversion rates. In recent months, we’ve been receiving more projects again where we’re explicitly tasked with preparing a return to a multi-year growth strategy. I think many of our partners have realized that it doesn’t pay to just «play it by ear.».

 

Wouldn't it have been better to have worked on long-term goals during the pandemic, rather than retreating into our shells? I always wonder where this collective fear of countercyclical investments comes from …

I have an interesting anecdote about this: Long before I joined TBWA, I was in Asia on business—in 1998, during the economic crisis there. I was working for Leo Burnett at the time, and I was visiting our client, Procter & Gamble. At P&G back then, they were convinced that they couldn’t cut back in any area—neither in production nor in advertising—if they were to emerge stronger from the economic crisis. Nothing was scaled back; there were no significant cuts anywhere. The strategy paid off completely. But to do that, you need a boss who understands crises—and there aren’t exactly dozens of crises you can use to test your approach. So decision-makers must learn from the experiences of others and have the courage to do things that may contradict their immediate intuition.

 

Can agencies influence the decision-making process here?

Only if they can back up their recommendations with facts. If you show up during a crisis and tell a CEO, «Be bold—because it’s great to be bold!»—well, you might as well not bother coming at all. You need arguments—strong evidence—that the strategy you’re recommending will bear fruit. At TBWA, for example, we use Backslash, an internal forum for cultural intelligence, to support our theses. Every day, we receive so-called «triggers» from more than 300 cultural observers around the world. From these, we identify overarching trends and use data to precisely assess how quickly these trends will develop. Sometimes it may be enough to say, «This is really important.» But especially in difficult times, we need to be able to say, “This is really important; it’s moving at such-and-such a pace, and this or that target group will be affected by it.” TBWA is capable of making such statements. Incidentally, I’m no different from our clients: When I have an idea, I want to compare it with the available data and verify whether it’s viable.

 

That fits with the strategy you’re pursuing—and communicating publicly: advertising and communication are becoming holistic consulting, and product promotion is evolving into a holistic brand experience. Has TBWA already reached that goal?

No, and we never will. I’m sure I’ll retire—one day—feeling dissatisfied (laughs). When you’re a creative person, you never reach your full potential. You’re always on the lookout for the «next big thing.» The market is constantly changing—consumers express a need for new products, those products come along, and in turn, they change consumer behavior. Everything is constantly in motion. That’s why we shouldn’t just focus on promoting Product X as aggressively as possible at a specific time, but rather identify key touchpoints where consumers and brands interact time and time again. Please don’t get me wrong: I love advertising, and I’m still fascinated by outstanding campaigns. But the real challenge lies in the total brand experience—in diverse touchpoints that seamlessly integrate into people’s lives.

«I'll go into retirement feeling unsatisfied. When you're a creative person, you never reach your full potential.»

Originating in Switzerland, a McDonald’s campaign has recently caused a stir with its aim to resolve the «battle over the last McNugget.» Its major client, for example, sells its product in packs of nine nuggets—and two people simply can’t split them fairly. So, for a limited time, McDonald’s in Switzerland is offering individual nuggets for sale. The advertising becomes the product—and the product becomes the advertising. That’s another example of a total brand experience, isn’t it?

Yes, and this example shows that you can even spice up a classic like the McNugget from a communications perspective. The team did everything right here: They identified a «problem»—or rather, generated an insight—then worked on a solution—and marketed it brilliantly.

 

They are clearly satisfied with the work of their Swiss colleagues.

I used to stop by the Zurich office mainly when I was on my way to the World Economic Forum in Davos anyway. Today, I come just to be at the office—and this year I even skipped the trip to Davos so I’d have more time. Zurich proves that it’s not the size of an agency’s branch that matters, but the creative power of the people who work there. By the way: Our office in Uruguay is further proof of this point. Some of the best work we create comes from there.

 

A small team with a big idea beats large teams that lack ideas.

Absolutely. And as CEO, it’s my job to create an environment where ideas can flourish. Informed, well-founded ideas—hence my earlier mention of Backslash. We’ve invested a tremendous amount of money in our strategic capabilities so that we can give our customers a competitive edge in the market and empower them to drive disruption. That will always fascinate me.

 

One last question: You mentioned the success of your colleagues in Switzerland, but how do you view the rest of the DACH region?

The Swiss economy is doing quite well right now; the country is thriving, and marketing budgets are stable. Some Swiss clients are doing very, very well at the moment. In Germany, it’s a bit… like in the U.S., where I live. You can sense that the country is at a crossroads; there’s a lot of turmoil in the market, a lot going on. Germany remains attractive, but not quite as «healthy» as Switzerland—at least that’s my assessment of the situation. Of course, the COVID-19 pandemic is still taking its toll on many companies—and there are important elections coming up, both at the national level and, at the end of the year, at the international level. We’ll have to see how all of this plays out.

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Troy Ruhanen has been CEO and President of TBWA\Worldwide since 2014. A native of Australia, he joined the agency network from TBWA’s parent company, Omnicom, and has since vigorously transformed it. Before his time at Omnicom, Ruhanen worked at BBDO and Leo Burnett, among others. He lives in New York City with his wife and four children. 

When Apple CEO Tim Cook announced «one more thing» at the end of the «WWD» in-house event in June 2023, everyone knew: The pursuit of evolution (a new iPhone, a more powerful iPad…) is on hold; now comes a bombshell—now comes revolution! Cook unveiled the Apple Vision Pro—not just another pair of VR glasses on the market, but a bold bid to establish «spatial computing» on a broad scale.

Freedom from Screen Limits

Spatial computing is a new form of human-computer interaction. With this approach, experiences are no longer limited to a computer screen—but instead involve the entire body and the surrounding space. Spatial computing draws on a wide range of technologies, such as virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), and mixed reality (MR = a combination of the first two). AI and machine learning are often key drivers behind these systems. The goal is to make these systems more intuitive to use—through gestures, body movements, and voice commands rather than a mouse, keyboard, or touchscreen.

«The pursuit of evolution is on hold—now comes a dramatic twist!»

Accordingly, the Apple Vision Pro is not just a pair of VR glasses, as Meta is currently demonstrating with its «Quest 3.» What sets this bold design apart is its see-through capability: Thanks to a «see-through» mode, digital images and the real environment can blend together, making augmented and mixed reality concepts possible. Wearers of these glasses—packed with high-tech sensors—don’t just immerse themselves in a virtual world; they can interact with their surroundings using their eyes, hand gestures, and voice, without relying on hardware controllers. Furthermore, VR experiences are no longer tied to a PC: thanks to the battery pack, the headset can also be used on the go.

Digital? Real? Both!

With these innovative glasses, digital content becomes part of the physical environment, creating an unlimited canvas for apps and applications. Users can group and scale their programs around them—essentially a portable multi-monitor environment. With the Apple Vision Pro, it’s possible to take multiple large monitors with you on a plane and work during the flight in an environment of your choice, from a lunar landscape to a natural setting. App windows can be freely placed within environments—for example, the recipe app, complete with a timer, can be positioned above a pot where food is currently simmering.

Stereoscopic 3D images, however, are particularly impressive thanks to the two 4K screens (one for each eye). This allows users to experience content—such as a concert—or virtual environments—such as the wildlife of the Age of Dinosaurs—as if they were right in the middle of it all. With the iPhone 15 or the Vision Pro, it’s possible to capture 3D images and videos and view them on the glasses. The experience is further enhanced by 3D audio through the built-in headphones or compatible AirPods, which round out the perfect «right in the middle of it all» experience.

Spatial Computing as a New Marketing Channel

With its still-high price of $3,500, the new hardware certainly won’t take the mass market by storm right away. «The first-generation Vision Pro is certainly still a high-end device, but there are already exciting potential applications for the B2B market. For example, in the future we could provide digital, interactive training materials on the Apple Vision Pro in our Partner Academy,» explains Christoph Kunz of the performance marketing agency rpc in Munich: Last year, his team successfully designed and launched the B2B training platform Partner Academy for suppliers in the automotive industry. Operating complex machines or production workflows is currently taught through videos and live seminars—but in the future, it could be explained in three dimensions within the room, according to Kunz.

«Complex visualizations become »tangible' in the truest sense of the word."

In addition, the hardware is also well-suited for marketing: «In the future, we’ll be able to design augmented reality experiences that seamlessly integrate digital information into the physical world. Products could be virtually experienced in a room, and product demos could become virtually tangible. Overall, conversion rates and customer loyalty could improve through more immersive digital experiences with products and brands,» says the agency head. One example would be a car configurator that allows users to directly experience the selected design of the car or its interior.

Take a close look at individual objects in the room

App developer Jiig, which specializes in 3D demos for Apple Vision Pro, demonstrates how this works in practice on its website: For example, users can closely examine the individual components of a jet engine in a virtual environment, rotating, scaling, or moving them to gain a deep understanding of their function and significance. The ability to make annotations and navigate content with their hands in real time significantly simplifies communication and problem-solving. Complex visualizations become «tangible» in the truest sense of the word. This intuitive form of interaction keeps users immersed in the experience and promotes effective learning.

In addition, the Apple Vision Pro could open up new learning opportunities in education that go beyond traditional projectors and slides. For example, according to its own statements, the private Spanish IE University in Segovia claims to have already supported 6,000 students from 140 countries in earning their degrees through AR and VR experiences—and plans to develop and offer native educational apps for the new Apple device.

The Mass Entertainment Market

But the mass entertainment market could also benefit from the Apple Vision Pro. Visual effects designer John LePore shows what this might look like in a concept video on YouTube: Instead of using multiple monitors in the room to display lap times and different cars, the Formula 1 app of the future could simply project a track view—in the style of an architectural model—onto the living room table, overlaying it with small real-time timers in the room and cockpit views above the cars. LePore’s concept created a huge “wow” effect, went viral, and was even eagerly shared on Instagram by F1 drivers like Kimi Räikkönen.

Conclusion: A New Medium for Marketing, Education, and Entertainment

The Apple Vision Pro could succeed in establishing topics such as AR, VR, and 3D spatial representations as a new medium—spatial computing—thereby opening up new and innovative possibilities for entertainment, education, and various industries. While it still faces the typical teething problems of a first-generation device (a rather sparse selection of apps and a price that’s too high for the mass market), the device’s potential is undeniable. As the ecosystem around Vision Pro grows with more apps and content, its impact on education and the broader market will likely intensify, ushering in a new era of digital interaction. Things will get particularly exciting when trends like creativity driven by generative AI combine with the Vision Pro to create a new experience—as applications like Adobe Firefly are already demonstrating today.

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INTERVIEW

«Spatial computing is here to revolutionize creativity»

Sven Doelle, Head of Innovation and Technology at Adobe, on the future of creativity with spatial computing and the Apple Vision Pro.

m&k: Sven Doelle, you have a strong background in creativity, including photography and moving images—as well as innovations such as the metaverse, generative AI, and the design of creative customer experiences. What are your expectations for Apple’s new hardware?

Sven Doelle: Now that the hype surrounding the metaverse and immersive experiences has died down, spatial computing is certainly not just a passing fad. It is a meaningful evolution of human-computer interfaces that will become part of our everyday lives. What Apple is offering with the Vision Pro raises the bar enormously in terms of both hardware quality and user experience. For years, Apple has been preparing a very well-thought-out end-to-end workflow and the perfect software ecosystem for this new generation of devices.

 

What new, creative possibilities do you see emerging from technologies like Apple Vision Pro?

The possibilities are endless. I expect immersive experiences that go far beyond anything we’ve seen so far. We’re talking about a wide range of use cases, such as—of course—creative, haptic applications, but also innovative onboarding experiences, immersive online meetings, and more. Simulating complex processes can also be implemented much more easily using so-called digital twins than with previous specialized solutions.

 

Adobe Firefly is already Adobe's first AI-powered creative tool for Apple Vision OS. Adobe Fresco and Behance are set to follow. What difference does Firefly make on Vision OS?

To start with, we’ve only ported the web interface to the Vision Pro. It’s certainly exciting—or even entertaining—to view and customize AI-generated creations in a large space—though I’m actually more of a fan of the Firefly features built into Photoshop. However, we’re definitely exploring further possibilities for the new category of spatial computing, which will offer truly new experiences in design and serve as a source of inspiration.

With countless awards to her name, Dörte Spengler-Ahrens is a creative force to be reckoned with. But the Chairwoman of Jung von Matt is so much more than that. Everything she takes on is creatively developed and refined until it’s just right. But even then, the Jung von Matt motto still applies: Always remain dissatisfied. Perhaps there’s still room for improvement from a different perspective. Dörte Spengler-Ahrens is just as passionately creative as she is a passionate mother and wife. And ADC President and cook and… It can’t all be true. Or can it? A search for clues.

Jean Remy wakes her up

Even as a young woman, Dörte was fascinated by art, culture, and creativity. After graduating from high school, she made the unconventional decision to enroll in the only course in communication design offered in her hometown of Konstanz at the time. «We had to draw a hammer,» she says with a laugh, summing up the creative level of the course. «But,» she says, «they still managed to ignite that crucial passion for advertising in me.» How? The whole class took a bus to Zurich to watch the Cannes reel at the movie theater. BAM. The rest is history. She moved to Düsseldorf and acquired the tools for her creative future at the University of Applied Sciences. On the side, she worked as a bartender at the Ratinger Hof—a cult disco known for its weird, flashy, and quirky atmosphere, but where the creative heart of Düsseldorf’s local scene comes together.

«My parents were worried that I would end up in poverty if I pursued a career in the arts; advertising was the compromise.»

Hamburg, her first stop at the KNSK agency. The legendary Lucky Strike campaign, her first big job—the advertising world takes notice of this young, boundlessly creative woman. And then it happens: A perfectly ordinary morning in the shared apartment in Hamburg; Dörte’s model roommate answers the phone (yes, back then there were still corded phones sitting in the hallway that everyone in the apartment shared), comes into Dörte’s room, and mumbles: «There’s some guy named Johnny or Jeremy on the phone here.» It’s Jean-Remy. THE Jean-Remy. Founder of Jung von Matt. The two meet; Dörte is quite impressed and tries hard not to say anything stupid (as she recounts with a laugh). Right there at the table, she learns an important lesson from Jean-Remy. Creativity knows no logic. She’s kept that in mind to this day and, in her masterclasses, loves to share with her students the cornerstones of madness: «No is not an option,» «There is no such thing as logic,» «We remain dissatisfied» (the Jung von Matt motto), and … «Trust yourself!»

The Journey at Jung von Matt

Dörte has worked hard to build this self-confidence over the 28 years she’s been at Jung von Matt. But she certainly also inherited some of it as a natural trait. As the youngest Creative Director ever, she finds herself facing skeptical glances—and perhaps even a bit of resentment—in the male-dominated executive suite. Undeterred, Dörte continues on her path; in 1999, she launches «Maria,» the first agency dedicated specifically to «women’s issues.» She has the drive to push these issues forward. Jean-Remy gives her the space to do so. But after just one year, it’s already over. During pitches for the next cookie-baking campaign, she throws in the towel in frustration. Perhaps, with the right intentions, she was simply 20 years too early, as Thomas Strerath explained when he delivered the laudatory speech for Dörte Spengler-Ahrens in 2018. She received the award for Agency Woman of the Year. But let’s go back to the year 2000. Dörte moves to Berlin and opens Jung von Matt Spree. She returns to Hamburg to be with her great love—the equally creative Tobias Ahrens—and they don’t want a long-distance relationship. «That’s not our thing,» as she puts it.

«Dörte is always on the ball, right in the thick of things; she’s firing on all cylinders, winning over great clients, creating crazy campaigns, and venturing into uncharted territory.»

Dörte Spengler-Ahrens is a creative mastermind. Always on the go, always searching, thinking outside the box, unstoppable. When she becomes a mother, her priorities shift. This fuels her creative streak even more. Knowing that she no longer wants to fly out to meet important clients every morning, and knowing that from this moment on, her life will no longer revolve solely around work, she hatches a devilishly good plan. She sets up a GSG-9 special unit within the agency. The rapid response team for every conceivable obstacle within the creative supply chain. She calls it Jung von Matt 9—the special unit for new business and excellence. The “Green Helmets” work at their own pace. 9 becomes so successful—and increasingly operates internationally—that administration and consulting services, and thus more staff, become necessary. Jung von Matt Fleet is formed, which is then merged with Jung von Matt Elbe. Dörte is always at the helm, right in the thick of it, she’s firing on all cylinders, winning great clients, creating mind-blowing campaigns, venturing into uncharted territory, learning as she goes, and ultimately becoming the first person ever to have her own agency—one that bears her name within the Jung von Matt unit system: SAGA. For Spengler-Ahrens, Giest, Agency (Giest was her consulting partner at the time). As a final step, everything is brought together under Jung von Matt Hamburg. What a journey.

ADC President

Of course, all of this isn’t enough for a 24/7 creative. Or let’s put it another way: Someone with that much creativity inside them can let it blossom in all sorts of places. Dörte has been president of the Art Directors Club Germany for four years. She’s been a member for much longer, has served on the board for quite some time, and is now at the helm. Here, too, she feels a strong need to increase the proportion of women in leadership positions in the creative industry. Thirteen percent is simply too low. «That’s just not acceptable,» says Dörte. She’s committed to identifying where women might be underrepresented. «Within a year, we’ve admitted 53 women to the club—not because they’re women, but because they’re brilliant, even though they wouldn’t have sought admission on their own.» But when it comes time to be elected to a jury, many back out. Why is that? She can’t answer that—the reasons are varied. «Most cite having too many other responsibilities, or they don’t feel ready for this level of responsibility.« Dörte finds it hard to accept that. You’re never ready, in her opinion; you only become ready by doing it. She herself sits on so many international juries and remembers well that, in the beginning, she, too, was often rather quiet out of sheer respect for the other jury members and didn’t dare to speak up. But that has always gotten better, because she realized that many people there think exactly like she does. Dörte founded »ADC future female,« a safe space for women in the creative industry, with workshops held once a year for three days—she affectionately calls it »Druckbetankung.” Now there are already 100 women—so things are definitely moving forward. Meanwhile, 292 women are represented in the ADC, and these numbers give her cause for optimism.

Clear Your Mind While Cooking

With all these demanding achievements, how does Dörte Spengler-Ahrens find the inner calm to approach life with such cheerfulness and equanimity? «My family gives me stability, keeps me grounded, and makes sure I don’t just work.» The Spengler-Ahrens family’s shared rituals provide the necessary balance. Cooking—Dörte and her husband celebrate it every evening, complete with chef’s jackets and all the trimmings. There are no exceptions. Good movies are another way they unwind. Bela, their son, was born into this tradition—dinner and movies—so he, too, is part of the family rituals. Except right now; he’s in the U.S. for an exchange semester. He’s studying online marketing.

«At Spengler-Ahrens, we don't talk about creative ideas—otherwise, we might unconsciously steal them from each other.»

And now, in 2024, she’s Chairwoman—a non-executive role, though she’ll continue to be involved in day-to-day operations. She’ll drive the group forward creatively, working closely with the two Chief Creative Officers. She’s proud of it all—and grateful. Grateful for her wonderful family, grateful for her second family—as she calls Jung von Matt. Grateful and proud, too, to serve as a role model for many young women in the industry, to follow her calling, to never let anyone belittle her, and to always stand up for her ideas.

Connected TV is enjoying great popularity in all DACH markets. Both streaming services and smaller broadcasters are benefiting from the fact that more and more TV sets connected to the Internet are appearing in people's living rooms in Germany, Austria and Switzerland - and acceptance of advertising is growing in what was "barely developed territory" just a few years ago. All this emerges from the Advanced TV DACH study, which was conducted by Goldbach Group AG and is being published these days. We have summarized the most important findings.

Awareness of Connected TV

The Goldbach study demonstrates that connected TV is now very well known in all DACH countries. When asked about the technology, 72% of respondents were able to categorize it correctly - and 56% of the total respondents stated that they use the technology themselves. The leading age group in terms of frequency of use among connected users is currently people aged between 30 and 49 (63%), with men leading the gender comparison (61%).

"Campfire for the family"

While linear television used to be referred to as a "campfire around which the whole family gathers", connected TV is steadily catching up in terms of the "community experience": the more people share a household, the higher the average weekly frequency of use of the technology - and the greater the likelihood that content offerings will be consumed together rather than by individuals. The current trend is towards co-viewing with a second person, which shows that personalization options do not necessarily have to go hand in hand with a singularization of viewers. This is an important indication for those who design programs, but also and above all for advertisers.

Where is the "access point"?

The fact that connected TV is flourishing is certainly also due to the fact that hardly any televisions are sold today that do not come with the option of digital expansion "from the factory". Accordingly, three quarters of those surveyed in the Goldbach study who use connected TV stated that they do so via a "smart" end device - in other words, they could do without bridging technology. Samsung is very popular among the relevant device brands, followed by LG, Sony and Philips.

"Linear TV used to be the 'campfire' for the family. Connected TV is now catching up."

The minority who use a streaming box are most likely to choose the Apple TV Box, followed by Magenta TV and the Amazon Fire TV Cube. These boxes are mainly used in households with children or households with three or more people (such as shared flats). If it is not a box, but a more compact streaming stick, the Amazon Fire TV Stick claims the highest market share in the DACH region. And when it comes to games consoles - which can also serve as a bridging technology for Connected TV - the Sony Playstation leads by a wide margin.

Almost three hours a day "connected"

Regardless of the access point, those who have access to connected TV technology use it extensively. According to the participants in the Goldbach study, they spend an average of more than two and a half hours a day with the "additional services" offered to them by digitalization - with Germans spending the most time in the connected ecosystem; the daily usage time has also increased significantly in the group of people aged between 16 and 29.

Apps are known - and used

The typical interface for connected TV - i.e. a specific arrangement of apps depending on the device manufacturer or bridging technology - is familiar to 98% of the users surveyed (the remaining 2% can probably be categorized as a statistical blur, as it is difficult to imagine anyone owning a digital TV set without ever having taken a closer look at its user interface). Unsurprisingly, streaming apps are the most popular, followed by TV channel apps and then apps dedicated to music and sport. "Heavy users" are mainly people between the ages of 16 and 49 (95% use apps regularly), but the older target group is catching up: Here, the weekly use of apps has risen to 75 percent.

The Goldbach study also proves that there is an extremely significant willingness to pay in connection with apps in the connected TV sector: the participants in the study stated that they use an average of 1.2 paid apps - if the number of actual users is analyzed, the rate even rises to an average of 2.5 paid apps per person. This rate is topped once again by women (2.7 paid apps), the demographic group of people aged between 16 and 29 (2.8 paid apps) and households with three or more people or households with children (2.8 paid apps). This is reflected in average expenditure of 36 euros / Swiss francs per household, the lion's share of which is invested in streaming apps (Netflix, Sky, Amazon Prime, etc.).

"Advertisers are well advised to consider investing in appropriate formats."

However, free apps are also increasingly being used - as a supplement or alternative to linear TV programs and as a way to consume moving image content in a pre-curated version. The average value of all respondents here is 1.3 apps, with effective users regularly accessing 3.0 free apps. This rate is topped by men (3.2 free apps), households with children and households with three or more people (3.3 free apps). This data also hides a somewhat surprising observation: free streaming apps are used more in Germany than in Switzerland and Austria, although Switzerland probably has the most liberal approach to the digitization of previously linear TV content in Europe.

And what about advertising?

It's no secret that pick-and-choose content has long been associated with certain reservations for advertisers. In an environment in which users can switch between a large number of content platforms more easily than ever, is advertising still perceived at all? Well, the Goldbach study on Connected TV can disprove at least some of these reservations.

This is because 51% of Connected TV viewers perceive advertising in the Connected TV environment. This represents an impressive ten percent increase in advertising awareness compared to the previous year's survey. A country comparison shows that Germany has the highest advertising perception, ahead of Austria. The increase among the female target group is particularly striking (fifteen percent compared to the previous year) and among 16 to 29-year-olds there is even an increase of 16 percent compared to the previous year. Among households with children, advertising awareness is at 56% - a peak value.

The basic acceptance of advertising in the connected TV environment is also growing continuously: more than half of the connected TV viewers interviewed in the Goldbach study find advertising in the connected TV environment "okay". Larger households and households with children not only show a high perception of advertising (see above), but also a top acceptance rate of 56%. Almost half of respondents also find that advertising in the connected TV environment gives them useful information about new products. 41% of respondents find advertising in the connected TV environment "helpful"; more than a third rate advertising as informative and entertaining. In a country comparison, the perception of advertising in Germany is consistently rated better than in Austria and Switzerland.

Build a head start now

Particularly exciting for clients: Advertising on connected TV works and activates. A good third of recipients state that they can "usually remember advertising in the Connected TV environment", that they "find out about a product based on the advertising", "talk about it with friends" and "ultimately buy the product". With regard to the specific forms of advertising "Connected TV spots" and "Connected TV ads", it is clear that over half of the people surveyed are familiar with these two forms of advertising. Advertisers are therefore well advised to check whether they want to invest in these formats. If the latest data from Goldbach is to be believed, it should be worthwhile. And build up a not insignificant lead over market competitors who are still taking a conservative, cautious approach to connected TV.

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INTERVIEW

"We recommend an integrated advertising strategy"

m&k: The GoldbachDACH study shows a high CTV usage in the DACH region. What is the Advantage for advertisers?

Mario Neumann: The fusion of digital technology and traditional TV enables precise targeting for advertisers. Data-supported, more efficient targeting is possible, combined with the advantages of TV: relaxed viewing combines high emotionalization and trust in the advertising message.

 

What new advertising opportunities become through the technology feasible?

New, innovative forms of advertising such as CTV Spots, CTV Ads, Corporate Channels, Addressable TV and Dynamic Ad Insertion (DAI). CTV Spots use viewer data for precise targeting and offer real-time measurement. CTV Ads, as native tiles on streaming platforms, enable unobtrusive interaction. Corporate channels allow companies to create their own CTV channels for their moving image content and thus strengthen brand loyalty. Addressable TV enables targeted advertising within traditional TV environments, while DAI dynamically replaces advertising content in live streams or TV ad breaks to increase the relevance and efficiency of advertising.

 

Fears about Individualization effects with viewers through CTV are unfounded. Will CTV become linear TV nevertheless only in Audience figures and then also in advertising volume replace?

Our Advanced TV study shows steady growth in CTV usage and acceptance across all age groups, especially among younger people and multi-person households. Advertisers are still hesitant about CTV campaigns - reach and advertising spend do not yet match. We expect CTV to play an important role in the media mix without completely replacing traditional TV in the near future. We recommend an integrated advertising strategy that combines traditional and digital approaches and utilizes the potential of CTV.

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Connected TV: What is it actually?

Connected TV (also known as CTV for short) is a term that refers to televisions that are connected to the internet. Connected TV allows users to stream video content from various sources, including streaming services, but also live TV channels and video-on-demand providers. The connection to the internet is typically established either via the TV sets themselves or via bridging technology (game consoles, streaming boxes or sticks).

m&k: When you’re interviewed, Mr. Brafman, the conversation often turns to moral issues related to your work as a criminal defense attorney. I’d like to start by asking something else: To be successful in your profession, do you need to be more of a legal scholar—or an outstanding storyteller?

Benjamin Brafman: Storytelling alone doesn’t accomplish much. It’s part of my job. But if you don’t know the law—if you haven’t studied it down to the last detail—in other words, if you’re not a legal scholar, storytelling won’t get you where you want to be at the end of a trial. Of course, you have to be able to communicate clearly and effectively—judges appreciate that. But the legal system in the U.S. can be extremely technical and detailed, so you also need to know what you’re talking about.

 

What about the jurors? They like a compelling narrative, don't they?

Our juries are usually made up of ordinary citizens, and since I try to humanize my clients in the eyes of the jurors, storytelling is almost essential in this context. I also need to be able to break down the complexity of a case so that everyone understands what it’s really about. But that’s just one part of my repertoire.

«Sometimes you can use humor to break the ice. But when a situation is truly serious, it's not appropriate to make light of it.»

Maybe it's just a rumor, but I read that you wanted to be a comedian when you were younger. But if it's true, what role does humor play in the courtroom?

This isn't a rumor—when I was 18 or 19, I actually thought comedy might be a good idea… I held onto that belief for about a week, two at most (laughs). And then I realized that I’d hardly be able to make a decent living as a comedian—because for every Jerry Seinfeld out there, there are 10,000 people who didn’t make it. I think I’ve kept a pretty good sense of humor. Every now and then, it can help break the ice. Especially if you come across as a bit self-deprecating. But when a case is really serious, it’s not appropriate to crack jokes. You have to get a feel for the audience, the jury, and the judge. I’ve seen lawyers who’ve tried to use humor in the wrong place or at the wrong time—and their credibility immediately went up in smoke.

 

Why did you actually decide to specialize in criminal defense? The first stop in your career was the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office—in other words, «the other side.».

That’s not entirely accurate. Right out of college, I joined the best criminal defense law firm in New York City for two years. But then I realized: If I wanted to become really, really good myself, I needed a change of perspective. I needed to understand how the prosecution works. Robert Morgenthau, the late Manhattan District Attorney, took me under his wing—and I stayed there for another four years. Only then did I devote myself to criminal defense. I’m good at empathizing with people who are going through difficult times in their lives, and—what can I say—this job is my calling.

«Storytelling is part of my work—but if you don't know the law, it won't get you where you want to go.»

You once described yourself as «one of the last of your kind.» You said there are fewer and fewer lawyers who do what you do. Why is that?

The job is incredibly tough; you carry an enormous amount of responsibility, and… the pressure is constant. It’s one thing to represent New York or the United States as a prosecutor. It’s quite another to represent a real, flesh-and-blood person as a criminal defense attorney—to get to know their family—and to realize: Not everyone who makes a mistake is evil. Imagine you’re the last line of defense between a person you actually find quite likable and the court that will pass judgment on that person. If you don’t do your job perfectly, your client might lose everything. Everything. I can’t ignore that. And in my experience, there are fewer and fewer colleagues who are willing to subject themselves to this pressure.

 

You briefly mentioned at the beginning that one of your tasks is to «humanize» your clients in the courtroom. You’ve represented Jay-Z, P. Diddy, Martin Shkreli, and Dominique Strauss-Kahn in court. When a public figure walks into your law firm, how do you «humanize» that person?

The men you’ve listed may be famous—or may have been at one time—but they’re also just… they’re no «more» than you or me. They have feelings, they’re insecure, they worry about the future, and they suffer. Sometimes they’re nice, sometimes they get on my nerves. That’s it. I just try not to let myself get overwhelmed by what’s written in the media or what I used to hear about my clients. That’s much easier for me now than it was 30 years ago when I was handling my first big cases. Do you remember the Strauss-Kahn case? Sure, Dominique was a global figure back then; he was set to become the next president of France. But when we worked together, he was above all a person who needed guidance. That’s how I saw him. And I liked him, to be honest. (Pauses briefly to think.) Do you know what’s essential in my line of work? Not coming across as a moralist. Some of the most powerful clients I’ve ever represented—and that includes some who never appeared in the media because we were able to prevent it—did everything right their whole lives. And then they made a mistake. They made a bad decision. Should their entire life be judged in hindsight based on that one stupid mistake? I don’t think so. And don’t kid yourself: As a CEO in the U.S., you can actually commit a serious crime and end up in prison simply by signing a document that contains one or two questionable paragraphs out of 200 pages. You may not have read everything thoroughly—but you didn’t mean any harm.

«In my line of work, it's essential not to come across as a moralist.»

The cases you handle often attract a great deal of media attention. How do you feel about working with journalists?

A necessary evil? (Laughs.) No, honestly: I think it’s rather unwise to storm out of the courtroom and shout, «No comment.» If the prosecution issues a statement and the media turns it into a story, that’s usually not to my clients« advantage—so we have to ensure a level playing field by having me issue a statement as well. Overall, though, it’s become harder to work with journalists. The deadlines court reporters now face are an absolute joke. It used to be 24 hours—then at some point 12 hours—and now there’s live coverage of the trial and everything is uploaded to the internet immediately. A story goes online, and ten minutes later it’s already obsolete, so a follow-up story comes out… How am I supposed to influence this flow of information anymore? I also can’t always blurt out everything I’d like to say—otherwise I’d end up before the ethics committee faster than I can shout »Objection!” (laughs). Let’s sum it up this way: I do what I can.

 

The media work with headlines and deadlines—juries grasp simple narratives more quickly—and yet you must demonstrate just how complex the «human condition» is. Reconciling all of this strikes me as a major challenge.

My view of the world isn’t black and white—I see the shades of gray. And that’s how I communicate. Let me give you an example: When I represented Martin Shkreli, he was considered the «most hated person in the U.S.» But I got to know him—and he definitely has some brilliant qualities. He’s… different, at least compared to what many people would call normal. Maybe he has autism?! My goal in the courtroom was to demonstrate that he—well, you know the song: he’s «born this way.» When he pulls a face or plays with his hair, he’s not doing it to rile up the jury… he always does that! That’s the storytelling element we relied on in his defense. At the same time, I questioned whether all the charges brought against him held up. They didn’t. But he was still sentenced to seven years in prison. And that, I have to be honest with you, broke my heart. He’ll never work in the pharmaceutical industry again because a judge ruled it so. If Shkreli had put his incredible talents to use elsewhere, he might have found a cure for cancer—but he chose to use his talents to break the law. I’m not ashamed that this makes me sad. I’m glad that I’m capable of this kind of empathy.

«I can't go around blabbing everything I'd like to say—otherwise I'll end up in front of the ethics committee.»

Does it bother you when you're criticized for the clients you represent?

I've gotten used to the criticism. Nobody appreciates my work until they need me (laughs). Yesterday people turned their noses up at me; today I’m the most important person in their lives. That reminds me of an anecdote, by the way: For many years, I was very active with the «Israel Cancer Research Fund» and, as a result, always served as the master of ceremonies at the annual fundraising gala. Once, I was sitting next to an oncologist who had just been honored for his groundbreaking research. And this doctor said, «Mr. Brafman, I’ve been waiting so long to meet you in person!» – «Why is that?» I replied, somewhat surprised. – «Because I’m an oncologist—and you’re a criminal defense attorney. So you’re probably the only person people are just as reluctant to make an appointment with as they are with me.» That’s both funny and sad, don’t you think? Of course, the comparison is a bit flawed, because if the doctor makes a mistake, someone might die. If I make a mistake, I’ll get postcards from prison for 20 years.

 

Some of your work could certainly be described as quasi-medical—as a form of psychological practice.

You have no idea, Mr. Hapig. I’ve prevented more people from committing suicide than I ever would have thought possible at the start of my career. More than I can count. Imagine the shock my clients experience: One minute the world is still okay, and the next, the FBI is knocking on their front door and handcuffing them. I couldn’t care less whether the people involved are guilty or not; in that moment, all I see are people who are afraid. And—let’s be completely honest: Sometimes suicide would be the easiest solution. I don’t want to sugarcoat that. Because if we go to court and lose, my clients could lose everything: their freedom, their assets, their home, even the college spots they’ve secured for their children. If they take their own lives, the accusations «die» with them… and the family can keep their home and assets. My job is to tell people: «Don’t give in to that temptation. Keep pushing.» Because if we go to court and win, they’ll have the chance to walk their children down the aisle someday and dance at their wedding. By the way, this isn’t a made-up example—a while back, I was invited to the wedding of a young woman whose very wealthy father had hired me five or six years ago. He was at high risk of suicide while he was in pretrial detention. After the ceremony, he took me aside, put his hands on my shoulders, and said, «Ben, I want you to be absolutely clear on this: If you hadn’t been there for me back then, I wouldn’t be here with my child today.»

 

That kind of thing helps you deal with criticism, too, doesn't it?

It does. Just as does my firm conviction that everyone—and I mean everyone—has the capacity to commit crimes. Horrific crimes, violent crimes. I remember how, a few years ago, I was defending a murderer, and a woman from the Jewish community in New York City—of which I’m a very active member—approached me at a seminar. The trial was still ongoing. She said I should be ashamed of myself for defending a murderer… and she said a few other things that I won’t repeat because you can’t print them (laughs). I remained calm and asked the lady if she considered herself violent. She said no—vehemently. Then I asked if she had children—she did. And whether she would protect her children with all her might and against any danger. Again, she said «Yes.»—«Would you even resort to violence if there were no other way to save your children from a threat?»—«...yes, probably.»—«Then don’t start an argument about who I’m representing in court—especially since you’ve just admitted in front of the entire Jewish community that you, too, are capable of violence!» Everyone, Mr. Hapig, has a different «breaking point». For this woman, it’s her children. For you, it might be something entirely different. Sometimes I can defend that «breaking point.» Sometimes I can understand it. And sometimes it lies far beyond what I’m capable of comprehending. But I don’t judge. Never. Because to do so, I would have to place myself above another human being—and that would not only be dishonest, but also contrary to my principles.

You've been practicing your profession for several decades now. If you could make the decision all over again—with everything you know today, with everything you've experienced—would you become a criminal defense attorney again?

It’s funny you should ask me that, because just the other day someone asked me the same question. I had to think about it for a long time before I answered. And I’m still thinking about the question now. Maybe my answer changes from day to day, depending on my mood. Sometimes I think I could have put my ability to communicate effectively to use in a field other than criminal defense. Medical malpractice, for example. If you want to make a lot of money, that’s exactly the right field. A friend of mine just won a $25 million settlement for a client, and the lawyer gets a third of that (laughs)! But: I’m not complaining. I make a good living from my work, I’m blessed in many ways—and I’m content. At the same time… it was tough. It was tough to get to where I am today. And it’s even tougher to stay here. This job gnaws at you, wears you down. But then again, you can help someone turn their life around for the better. Jay and P. Diddy, for example.

«Don't be such a damn idiot! Use your talent for something other than getting shot.»

Jay is, of course, the musician Jay-Z, whom you—along with P. Diddy—represented in court. Jay-Z even dedicated a line in one of his songs to you afterward.

Yeah (laughs). There’s a track of his called «Welcome to New York,» and the line goes: «Coverage at Center Street, got Brafman defending me—»cause New York will miss me if I’m locked in the penitentiary.« I wanted to… protect Jay-Z and P. Diddy. Their cases happened about 25 years ago, and back then I was much more worried about the possible sentences than they were. Because I recognized their potential. I realized that—if they could avoid a prison sentence—they’d have a new chance. And that they might turn that chance into two of the most successful careers any African Americans have ever had in the U.S. When Jay-Z »only« got probation, I almost fainted with joy (laughs). We left the courthouse, and I told him: »Don’t mess this up. You’re one of the most talented artists I’ve ever met, and you have your whole life ahead of you. Please, please, don’t do anything stupid anymore.« He managed to do just that. Just like P. Diddy. Or 50 Cent. 50 Cent was hanging out in the drug scene and got shot eleven times. Can you imagine that? Eleven times! »Boy, cut it out,« I told him, »and don’t be such a damn idiot! Use your God-given talent for something other than getting shot.”

 

Is it the greatest honor for a New York criminal defense attorney to be immortalized in a Jay-Z song?

Oh, I don't know… I'm a short, white, Jewish guy… and when the song came out, my kids were especially thrilled. Back then, they could hardly wait to play it for their friends. A «cool» rapper was talking about their dad, who… was just their dad (laughs). They thought that was fantastic. My wife, on the other hand, still says to this day that the song is a rather dubious honor. To answer your question: The jury hasn’t reached a final verdict yet.

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One of Benjamin Brafman's best-known cases is also one that he was unable to bring to a successful conclusion: that of the sex offender and former film producer Harvey Weinstein. The exact circumstances of the «separation» during the 2019 proceedings remain the subject of speculation to this day; likely also because speaking negatively about past clients would damage Brafman’s «reputation» as a criminal defense attorney. One might speculate, however, whether the attorney simply could no longer «humanize» someone with Weinstein’s criminal energy: For example, he later suggested that his former client «could be nice when he wanted to,» was prone to «verbal outbursts,» and believed he «could best manage his own defense.».