m&k: In an episode of the Arte documentary series «Through the Night with …,» in which you have dinner with theater artist Christoph Schlingensief in Frankfurt. You explain with tremendous self-assurance that you were doing wonderfully—that you didn’t care whether others liked you—and that you let life give you many «wonderful gifts.» Now that I’m reading your book *Fremd*, I find myself wondering: Were you really doing that well back then?

Prof. Michel Friedman: No.

What kind of person were you when the Arte footage was shot?

Friedman the man was—and still is, to this day—sad. Hurt. Lonely. Bleeding. I never experienced that sense of basic trust. My family, as I describe in *Fremd*, was marked by fear and grief. Specifically, during the period you’re referring to, I suffered because of my parents« advancing age, their illnesses, and then their deaths. And that’s what I write: With their deaths, the stability ended; the edifice of my existence, which was already crumbling at the time, finally collapsed.

You are the son of Jewish parents who were saved from the Nazis by Oskar Schindler and returned to Germany via Paris after the fall of the Third Reich. In *Fremd*, you describe how you wanted to ease your parents« existential sadness throughout their lives. A Herculean task for a child; a complete reversal of roles.

Not a Herculean task, but an impossible one! Yet millions of other children have faced similar challenges for various reasons. After all, I didn’t just come to Germany as a Jewish child, but also as a child from an immigrant background. I didn’t start learning German until I was ten, at the Gymnasium; before that, I attended a French elementary school. My parents spoke almost exclusively French, so I had to translate for them. Millions of young people know this feeling—that, in essence, the roles of child and adult are reversed, with all the shame and despair that entails. And in my case, there’s also the fact that I wanted to bring a little happiness into the lives of these sad, depressed, desperate people. I wanted my parents to be proud of me, to feel that I would be able to live a better life, thanks in part to their efforts. But—no matter what I achieved personally or professionally—it never seemed to be enough for me. And this feeling that it isn’t enough—that I’m not enough… has left its mark over the decades.

Now you’ve written a bestseller about your feelings—about feeling like an «outsider» and «inadequate.» You, who have long presented yourself as an energetic, eloquent advocate, are showing your vulnerability. How much courage did that take?

I don’t even know if it took courage to write this book. Maybe it was desperation; or an attempt to make what had already been said accessible in a different way?! You see, life as the child of Holocaust survivors in West Germany in the 1960s was a life spent among people who all claimed to be innocent. The bloodstained walls were whitewashed with white wallpaper—in Europe, and especially in Germany. Because it must be said: Germany did not invent anti-Semitism, but Germany did invent Auschwitz; that is why the debate here takes on an entirely different dimension. My life was thus shaped by these circumstances—and that is why I have tried, on many levels of social discourse, to warn people about what humans are capable of doing to one another. How fragile human rights are. How close civilization always is to barbarism. «Fremd» is a skeletal text, a sui generis work that, in my opinion, is less biographical than political. It says: My parents’ generation experienced Auschwitz as the endpoint of violence; but all around us there are once again countless starting points of violence. We are right in the middle of it. Now, at this very moment.

So isn't individual catharsis the motive?

Cathartic effects belong to literature, not to life. There are dramatic effects that belong to life, not to literature. *Fremd* contains biographical elements, but these are embedded in a sociopolitical critique and a portrayal of the fundamentally aggressive nature of human beings throughout history. The book explores the relationship between «we» and «I»—the issue of exclusion through the formation of groups. The question of why we cannot, as a civilized society, organize our existential need to live in groups rather than alone in such a way that we do not construct the differences between groups as antagonism.

Earlier, you said you had never been able to feel a basic sense of trust in life or in the people around you. Can words describe what it’s like to grow up among potential perpetrators and accomplices of the Nazi regime—without knowing for sure whether the person in front of you had done anything, or what exactly they had done?

This was something that really preoccupied me when I was between fifteen and twenty years old—that is, after I’d been living in the Federal Republic of Germany for a while. Some of my teachers were avowed Nazis; the others, given their age, were at the very least suspect: «Who are you? Who were you?» I should have asked that of many of my school friends« parents, too. The officials at the police department, the immigration office, in the civil service—anyone who had reached a certain age must surely have been active within the structures of National Socialism! This isn’t just about whether someone murdered people in a concentration camp, but about supposedly more mundane issues: »Do you happen to have a picture, some dishes, or cutlery from your neighbor who was taken away by the Gestapo? And if you have these things, did you really think they’d come back? Or did you know that person wouldn’t return? Every village had synagogues, places of worship. Where were you when they were burning? And why didn’t you put out the fire?” These reflections can make you cynical—or you can try to regain that trust.

What hard work is—as you keep emphasizing.

Yes. It’s a never-ending effort, because trust—especially when it’s hard-won and fresh—can easily be shaken. But when I meet people, I want to approach them with curiosity and a sparkle in my eyes. I don’t want to view them through the lens of cynicism. I don’t want to form prejudices, because I’ve experienced the trap of prejudice myself! And, to be honest, I’ve never regretted living that way. It was also a source of my energy and, despite everything I’ve done wrong—for me, it’s the recipe for life.

I don’t want to fabricate contradictions, but rather to address a certain dialectic: So time and again we reach out to our fellow human beings, grapple with them—and yet, between the lines of *Fremd* and in our conversation, your notion of an existential loneliness that ultimately cannot be overcome always shines through?!

Well, if you give «strangeness» a metaphysical dimension, there is, of course, this question of being—whether we live existentially alone in this world. Whether isolation is, a priori, an inescapable reality, or whether, through our interactions with others and the experience of mutual strangeness, we come to recognize both ourselves and one another. At least as far as the subconscious and the emotional stirrings associated with it are concerned, I am, of course, skeptical.

And yet there is a wonderful passage in your book where the protagonist expresses exactly that kind of skepticism—and a female counterpart wants to visit him through love in his solitude.

(smiles) This is one of the shortest chapters, and it should not be expanded through interpretation or commentary. It is a very modest attempt to say a few words about love—by someone who is very happily married. That must suffice as an explanation.

You’ve said that you always strive to approach others with curiosity—a curiosity that manifests itself in questions, criticism, and discussions that push you to your physical and intellectual limits. That’s how the public knows you, and you’ve sometimes been harshly criticized for your approach. What’s more: Through your involvement with the Central Council of Jews in Germany and your work against antisemitism, you’ve even put your life in danger. I don’t know how much you’re willing to share about that, but …

… there have been two publicly documented attempts on my life, both involving firearms. I’m still in the «Top Ten» on the racists’ list today. Let’s not discuss any further details, please.

I have great respect for the willingness to put oneself on the line in this way.

Look, I don’t want to romanticize my own involvement. My parents survived because they were on Schindler’s list, and I knew Oskar Schindler as a child and teenager. At a time when everyone was telling me, «What can one person really do?» What a terribly trite excuse! Oskar Schindler did something—and, among others, saved my parents, as well as many other people. The memory of this man has been so deeply etched in my mind that I never allowed myself to say, «Michel, there’s nothing you can do.» That’s why I get involved. That’s why I include the dedication «Never be silent!» in all my books. On top of that, the question «Why?» has become, in many ways, a question of life itself for me—and that, too, is a driving force behind my work.

In what way?

In the biographies of many Holocaust survivors, and in the stories told by their children and grandchildren, you will find the word—the question—«Why?» People who survived the Holocaust often struggled with feelings of guilt: «Why did I survive, but not my brother? He was brilliant! Or my sister—who played the piano so beautifully…?!» And then comes the next level of questioning: «Why did everything turn out the way it did?» Not just in terms of history, but «in general.» And this is where my journalistic work begins: I ask questions. The only thing that always remains constant is doubt—self-doubt—the realization that tomorrow nothing will be the same as today. Because life is dynamic. Because our perception is dynamic. Because this universe is dynamic. And because standing still means shutting oneself off from knowledge and understanding. «Why?» is the first word, followed by «Because…!», and here we already have the beginning of a progressive culture of debate.

The predecessor to *Fremd*, *Streiten? Unbedingt!*, is a passionate plea for the revival—or creation—of just such a culture. You’ve always enjoyed debating, and you still do today. What principles do you follow when doing so?

There are three conditions for a successful communicative exchange. First, you must recognize your counterpart as an equal; in other words, you must find common ground. For example, there are many men who do not debate with women but instead lecture them condescendingly because they do not recognize their female counterparts as equals. The same applies to other groups that are viewed as unequal. I’m often asked if I would argue with far-right politicians—and I reply, «They wouldn’t argue with me!» Because, as a Jew, they don’t view me as an equal. A conflict might well arise between us, but not a debate in the progressive sense of the word. The second condition is curiosity, which leads to listening. And the third condition is the argument—with a nuance that has gained even greater significance in recent years.

And what would that be?

An argument must be based on a fact. It is nothing more than reflecting on a fact. Reflecting on a lie leads to another, carefully considered lie—which, of course, does not become true simply by thinking about it, but remains a lie at its core. And one more thing: we must rid the term “argument” of its negative connotation.

Can you elaborate on that?

In Germany, as well as in Switzerland, the term “argument” has negative connotations. This is also the case in some other countries. Of course, when you argue with someone, questioning is inherent in the nature of the situation, and by challenging a person’s arguments, you’re also, to some extent, questioning the person themselves. But you can separate that from an emotional judgment of the person.

Could you illustrate that with an example?

I learned to enjoy arguing because I argued with my father almost every evening. After dinner, about every conceivable topic—because as a teenager, I thought I knew everything better anyway. Like all teenagers. And sometimes it got really heated. But when I went to bed, I always got a goodnight kiss. And that kiss showed me: Our emotional bond wasn’t strained just because we argued like that. That’s something you have to learn—whether you’re arguing within your family, with a partner, or among friends; and even more so as the group gets bigger. It can be uncomfortable at times, but just how uncomfortable are the consequences when you don’t argue?

So, in your words, this leads to stagnation … and perhaps even regression?

Yes. Look at today’s societies, spoiled by prosperity. Where people have always smoothed over the rough edges and refused to acknowledge conflicts; where they threw money at problems in the hope that it would help. There, the message is now suddenly: The land of milk and honey has gone up in flames. The crises of our time are no longer far away—they’re here, right in the midst of us, all around us. And if we don’t learn to desire, to want, to enjoy, to endure, and sometimes even to suffer through conflict, then we won’t be able to resolve any crises.

At the beginning of our conversation, we talked about a TV scene from twenty years ago—and the impression people might have had of you back then. «Fremd» and «Streiten? Unbedingt!» seem to me today like an explanation: that your modus operandi wasn’t aggression, but a drive to move forward; that your public persona wasn’t eccentricity, but an expression of your life story. Is this assessment accurate?

Now you’re making it difficult for me, because I don’t want to reinterpret your interpretation. So I’ll just leave your statement as it is. What I can say in retrospect is this: My longing has always been to have a high degree of self-determination. Acting agreeable just to be patted on the head—that’s wrong, because as soon as you say «no,» the pats on the head stop immediately. In my role as a journalist and columnist, I’ve always seen it as my duty to hold power to account: political power, economic power. Whenever I encountered hot air, I wanted to dig deeper, until I got to the heart of the matter—or didn’t. That’s what I meant when I said that conflict must be endured. Many couldn’t—and still can’t—do that. Many have told me, «That’s no way to talk to ministers!» And that’s when I asked myself, “Why shouldn’t you talk to ministers that way? That’s exactly how you should talk to them!” (laughs) Power—and I cannot emphasize this enough—must be held accountable. Anyone who has been elected is scrutinized in their work by the public and critical journalism, every single day. It cannot be any other way. So, if I had to start all over again, would I choose to carry out this part of my professional work in the same way? In principle, yes. I find this vacillation, this failure to get to the point, unbearable.

But—in some ways, you've already changed, haven't you?

Well, if you'd said I hadn't changed, I'd probably have to jump out the window right now (laughs)! I hope that every person is constantly changing, and I’m no exception. That’s why I don’t want to take any credit for it. But I won’t deny that sometimes I wish the catalysts for those changes hadn’t manifested themselves the way they did. There are some of the extraordinary, borderline experiences from the past that I wouldn’t want to go through again. This includes my own failure twenty years ago—which is really no secret, even though we’ve only referred to it indirectly here. Yes, I’m learning. Yes, I’m changing—both in my mind and in my heart. Besides, how could I deny that I’m getting older? That, too, is a formative experience that helps one understand a great deal—looking back at the past, but also looking ahead to the future. Your assessment that I’m no longer the same person I was twenty years ago… that’s not a compliment to me. Nor is it an insult. All you’ve said is that I’m still alive and well. And I accept that.

* Prof. Dr. Dr. Michel Friedman is a German-French lawyer, philosopher, journalist, talk show host, and former high-ranking politician. The son of Jewish parents who were saved from the Nazis by Oskar Schindler, he grew up first in Paris and later in Frankfurt am Main. From 1994 to 1996, Friedman served on the CDU’s federal executive committee. From 2000 to 2003, he served as vice chairman of the Central Council of Jews in Germany and editor of the weekly newspaper *Jüdische Allgemeine*, and from 2001 to 2003, he was president of the European Jewish Congress. He hosted several talk shows, including «Vorsicht! Friedman» on Hessischer Rundfunk from 1998 to 2003 and «Studio Friedman» on N24 (now Welt) from 2004 to 2021. Since 2016, he has been an honorary professor of real estate and media law at Frankfurt University of Applied Sciences. Friedman is the author and editor of various books, many of which are international bestsellers. He is married and the father of two sons.

Today, companies increasingly differentiate themselves through the customer experience. In a «I can get everything with one click» world, a company’s product is taking a back seat. In an era of global competition and increasingly comparable products, the overall experience customers have with a brand is becoming more and more important. Customer experience is all about differentiation. «You can either aim for price leadership or differentiate yourself,» says Glenn Oberholzer of the Zurich-based customer experience consulting firm Stimmt. Differentiation is always about setting a focus. «A company must clearly define for whom it wants to achieve what kind of added value and in what way,» says Oberholzer. Differentiation through the customer experience—that is, facilitating positive interactions for specific customers—is a promising path to achieving this.

By no means trivial

There are a multitude of touchpoints between companies and customers. It’s also important to consider customers« widely varying expectations of companies and the nature of their interactions. Customer experience suites promise to optimize interactions with customers. This partner of Stimmt AG takes a decidedly critical view of the current trend toward software designed to improve the customer experience, drawing a comparison to the CRM movement of 20 years ago: »Back then, customer relationship management as an overarching concept was hijacked by tech companies to sell software.« The result was customer databases with additional features. The same thing is happening now with CX suites. In the process, people are forgetting that software alone cannot deliver a good customer experience. »It takes the entire organization to do that,” says Glenn Oberholzer.

Customer experience suites promise to optimize interactions with customers.

According to Charlotte Malz, Marketing & Communications Manager at BSI, companies need to establish end-to-end (customer) processes across all departments. «Cultural change is at least as important as technological change and should definitely be actively supported when introducing such smart systems into a company.» The major players in the CX suite space include Microsoft, Adobe, Salesforce, and—as a Swiss player—the software manufacturer BSI. Of course, the «old» CRM companies are also in the mix, such as SAS.

Interest is also growing in providers of customer experience measurement solutions. The goal here is to efficiently gather customer feedback on their experiences. Among the leaders in collecting customer feedback are Medallia and Qualtrics. Swiss companies such as SandSiv, Alida, and Echonovum also offer customer experience management (CXM) and voice-of-the-customer (VoC) solutions.

A Changing Clientele

Since the pandemic, customer needs and expectations have been evolving at a rapid pace. In Switzerland, according to Salesforce’s fifth «State of the Connected Customer» report, an estimated 56 percent of customer experiences take place online. According to Luca Pastorino, Regional Manager for Salesforce Switzerland, this means that brands must find a way to create personalized experiences across all channels. «In addition, factors such as trust, corporate values, and integrity are playing an increasingly important role in this ever-faster-changing world and are having a greater impact on the relationship between companies and their customers.»At the same time, brand loyalty is waning: «Fewer and fewer consumers remain loyal to brands—instead, they critically weigh price and value and switch more frequently as a result.» The 36-year-old Zurich native is convinced that current inflation is also challenging brand loyalty. Consumers today are asking themselves even more critically what they’re getting for their money. «To retain their customers» loyalty, brands must engage them in a flexible and thoughtful way and add a personal touch to their interactions,” Pastorino continues.

The major players in the CX suite market include Microsoft, Adobe, Salesforce, and—as a Swiss player—the software company BSI. Of course, the «old» CRM companies are also in the mix, such as SAS.

This is where CX technologies come into play, helping companies deliver a high level of quality on a large scale—all while serving tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of customers. According to Angelo Buscemi, Country Manager for Switzerland, Austria, and Eastern Europe at Adobe, an effective customer experience can vary greatly depending on the type of company and, ideally, become a distinctive unique selling point for the brand. Outstanding customer experiences, he says, are characterized above all by the following features: «Relevance, consistency in interaction, a high degree of personalization, and empathy.»

«Comprehensive, cross-departmental, and cross-touchpoint management of customer relationships and the customer experience is becoming increasingly important for success,» says Charlotte Malz of BSI. In addition to technical quality and feature set, cultural affinity and a good fit with the respective industry are key to ensuring that all regulatory requirements and industry-specific nuances are covered. «This is the only way CX suites can create added value,» says Malz.

Fewer and fewer consumers are remaining loyal to brands—instead, they are carefully weighing price and value and switching brands more frequently as a result.

According to Buscemi of Basel, the limitations of CX suites often lie not in the tools themselves, but in the groundwork that needs to be done. This groundwork is the foundation for an outstanding customer experience. «Any solution can only be as good as the data it works with.» First and foremost, this requires a strong customer relationship. Customers must clearly recognize the added value they receive in exchange for the data they provide—«which requires trust in the brand they’re interacting with,» says the Adobe representative.

Customer experience tools are designed to make customers feel as if they're in the corner store down the street.

The authors of the CEX Trend Radar 2023 have also picked up on the trend toward CX ecosystems and platforms. Compelling customer experiences are only possible if software providers are able to interconnect their solutions in a way that enables integrated processes from the company’s perspective and a seamless customer journey from the customer’s perspective. The study further notes that cross-industry ecosystems are increasingly shaping the customer experience. According to the Trend Radar, this development will continue to gain momentum beyond 2023. However, political, legal, and—above all—data protection frameworks are acting as brakes on this trend, depending on the industry.

The Corner Store Dilemma

Customer experience tools are designed to make customers feel as if they’re in the corner store down the street—even though they’re just one of perhaps 100,000 people the company deals with. Glenn Oberholzer, a partner at Stimmt AG, calls this the «corner store dilemma.» «The corner store is the corner store. Galaxus will never be that—not even with the best CX software.» But no one would expect that anyway, explains the 46-year-old customer-focus expert. “However, if I feel that Galaxus is speaking directly to me—if the company makes suggestions about what I might need, if Galaxus’s values align with my own, and if the interaction is also simple and pleasant—then that’s already a lot of value.”

Oberholzer points out another very important point: In the past, mom-and-pop stores generated good sales thanks to the trust they had built with their customers. Today, however, the promise of many CX, marketing automation, and performance marketing software solutions is more about influencing customers to make purchases at the right time and in the right place. «That’s the opposite of the corner store and the opposite of good customer relationships.»

Tip: Customer Experience

Outstanding customer experiences have the following characteristics:

1. Relevance

The selection online is so vast that offering something extra is essential to stand out.

2. Consistency in Interaction

Customers want to be guided through the journey—and they want that guidance to be recognizable.

3. A high degree of personalization

Customers want to feel that they are being addressed personally.

4. Empathy

If users feel understood on an emotional level, they are more likely to remain loyal.

Sometimes I can hardly believe how quickly time flies. It’s already been three years since we launched our «Bring Women Back to Work» (BWBW) program—right in the midst of a global pandemic and a period of unprecedented uncertainty. The program began with a (seemingly simple) idea: What if we combined the strengths of Salesforce and innovative partner companies to help women re-enter the workforce? Women who had taken time off to care for a child or a family member; some of whom had never worked in the tech industry before? What if we reached out to them, «hired for attitude, trained for skill»—showing them how Salesforce tools work and how they can apply them at our partner companies? And what if they could then take a job at those very same companies?

Bold Questions, Beautiful Answers

Back then, we had the courage and energy to follow through on those «What if…?» questions. Today, about 36 months later, I couldn’t be happier that we did. Starting in Switzerland, Bring Women Back To Work is well on its way to becoming an international movement: Our program has been available in Germany since last summer and in Eastern Europe since last fall. In total, we’ve already paved the way for 220 women to (re)enter the workforce, launched dozens of new partnerships (with organizations such as Integra, Headswap, IBMx, Helvetia, Sunrise, UPS, and Estée Lauder)—and have welcomed the first three «community babies» into the world.

«Bring Women Back to Work» has always been a personal issue for me—a cause close to my heart, much more than just a job or volunteer role. Before my time at Salesforce, I myself experienced on several occasions how a woman—even in the supposedly so progressive 21st century—can fall through the cracks of the career network when she becomes pregnant. She’s away for a few months, and suddenly there’s a “reset”; the work she’s done over the past few years is handed off to colleagues, and her own position becomes obsolete. I didn’t want what happened to me to happen to others, which is why I’m so proud and so happy that our initiative has gained so much momentum.

Community Beats Everything

The learning curve over the past three years has been enormous—for our partner companies, for Salesforce, for the participants, and for me personally. If I had to identify just one «key learning,» it would probably be that a genuine community is stronger than any single person—or any single company—could ever be. Because all the candidates who have applied to BWBW—and continue to do so—are connected by similar experiences, a sense of community emerges immediately. It creates a gathering of people who support and sustain one another; who allow each other to be exactly who they are. This enables every single participant to regain her self-confidence—and, as corny as it sounds: to move mountains. That, in turn, gives everyone else the courage to do the same.

Personal Stories

I’m absolutely no exception—and I never tire of listening to the stories of our participants. Their strength rubs off on me. One day, for example, Elena, who was part of the third round of our program, called me: With a mix of shock and sadness, she told me that she had become pregnant—even though she had just completed the BWBW training and then received a job offer. She’d been hoping to return to the workforce for three years… and now «something like this»! Elena sounded resigned and frustrated, apologizing over and over again.

«What a crazy world!» I thought instantly: A baby is on the way, and all women in our society can think about are their rapidly dwindling career prospects. This shows just how broken the system still is—and how much work we still have to do.

But I also thought just as quickly: «Not with us! Not with Bring Women Back To Work!» So I simply called the prospective employer—and they were extremely understanding toward Elena as an expectant mother. A few minutes later, I had her on the phone again: «Enjoy your pregnancy,» I told her, «and a new job will be waiting for you afterward!» We were both so moved, so happy—I’ll probably never forget that. A beautiful story, no doubt. But shouldn’t this be the absolute norm? Shouldn’t it finally be normal for pregnancy to be treated as a joyful event, not a stigma, and for other forms of care work to receive the respect they deserve?

We need to do even more …

That brings me back to the future: We need to do even more, and we will do even more. The plan is to expand “Bring Women Back To Work” to various European countries. This is easily achievable, since the underlying structures are designed for scalability. What we’re doing in Switzerland, Eastern Europe, or Germany can be done anywhere—we just need partner companies to help out. But I’m not worried about that.

When a new country is integrated, the «onboarding» takes place at a specific point in time—synchronized with countries already in the program. Remote workshops then become accessible to the «newcomers» as well, who are connected to the BWBW infrastructure like another piece of a puzzle. Individual mentoring and coaching are tailored to each country (hence the need for partner companies). If we continue with our current planning, we will welcome two more nations into the initiative in 2023. By 2026, more than 4,000 women will be part of our program. And then? «The sky’s the limit.»

… and eventually write it all down

Someday, in a few years, BWBW should be able to function even without me as its founder. Then I’d like to take the time to write about all the wonderful women who, together with us, have successfully returned to the workforce. Every single one of their stories deserves to be told. That would be my first book idea. I’d also like to write a guide for companies—based on the experiences we have every day. The working title? Perhaps «On the Path to a Just World.» But first, there’s still a lot to do. Because, as the saying goes, we haven’t come this far just to stop here.

The initiative Bring Women Back To Work has been in existence for three years. Starting in Switzerland, it is now also active in Germany and Eastern Europe—with more countries set to follow. Bring Women Back To Work follows a two-pronged approach: First, women who have taken extended career breaks (for example, due to childbirth or caring for a child) are trained in the technological applications of the Salesforce ecosystem. They can then put their skills into practice at the initiative’s partner companies—very often leading to a permanent position.

* Vanessa Gentile is Head of Marketing Switzerland at Salesforce, a provider of CRM technology. Previously, she served as Alliances & Channel Lead at the company. She also held positions at Oracle and Microsoft. Gentile lives near Zurich with her two sons.

New SRG License

At the end of 2022, the Federal Council outlined a few key points that should be included in a new version of the SRG license. These relate to long-standing demands and developments. For example, the SRG’s online offerings are to further reduce their text content in order to avoid intensifying competition with newspaper portals. For the same reason, the Federal Council considers it appropriate to no longer require the SRG to provide a comprehensive range of entertainment and sports programming; namely in areas where private competition has grown significantly in recent years, led by CH Media. A public consultation on the new SRG license is scheduled to take place this year.

Licenses for Private Broadcasting

With the transition of radio broadcasting from FM to DAB+, the licenses for local radio stations (which have already been extended once) are also set to expire. In the wake of this technological transition, a number of previously licensed stations have already decided to return their licenses; they no longer derived any benefit from them but were still required to comply with official requirements regarding infrastructure and programming. To adequately reflect these developments in regulatory terms, parts of the Radio and Television Ordinance are currently under revision. All in all, these are cosmetic adjustments and a response to market developments. The new licenses are to be granted for a period of ten years starting in 2025.

A New Push for Media Funding

Following the rejection of the media package in the referendum in early 2022, Parliament is now compiling proposals aimed at ensuring a successful second attempt. By spring 2024, the administration must submit a report to Parliament, thereby fulfilling a postulate by Katja Christ (GLP). Among other things, the Zurich National Council member calls on the Federal Council to «examine a variety of very different options» for forward-looking and sustainable media support. On this basis, Parliament could then draft a bill. It could take around ten years before a new system, if any, comes into effect.

Revision of the Ancillary Copyright Law

For a long time now, publishers have been calling on policymakers to enact legal measures that will better protect their online content from what they consider to be unfair use by platform companies. Publishers see a so-called “neighboring right,” as already in effect in the EU, as an effective remedy. This would allow them to charge companies like Google and Facebook when they distribute and link to excerpts from newspaper articles on their platforms and services. A draft of such a law will be submitted for public comment this spring. Here, too, it would take years before an ancillary copyright could come into effect. The big companies would benefit the most.

Everyone is closest to themselves

The four areas of concern across four sectors say a lot about the state of regulation. Each sector—led by the major publishing houses, but also including private radio and TV companies and the SRG—is defending the status quo within its own niche. People look out for themselves first; their own interests take precedence over those of the industry. This was clearly evident in the media package. During the parliamentary deliberations, publishers continued to lobby for millions more in press subsidies—until the package became overloaded with special interests and the public rejected it in the referendum.

But even proposals that take a broad view of the entire industry can fail. For example, in 2018, former Federal Councilor Doris Leuthard took a major step forward with a draft law on electronic media. With this, the media minister sought to replace the Radio and Television Act. It was a law that Marc Furrer, the former director of the Federal Office of Communications, had already described two years earlier as hopelessly outdated and in urgent need of revision. But Leuthard’s bold move failed—presumably because she didn’t go far enough. Her proposal met with widespread rejection: publishers and radio and TV associations felt the reform proposal went too far, while online media outlets and their lobby felt it didn’t go far enough.

Will Albert Rösti get things moving?

Recently, there have been signs that media policy might be on the verge of change. With Albert Rösti taking office as head of the Federal Department of the Environment, Transport, Energy and Communications (UVEK), the department shifted from the SP to the SVP. As a Federal Councilor, however, Rösti will not implement his party’s platform. In fact, the Bernese politician is not the hardliner on media issues that some have already portrayed him to be. Although he sits on the committee for the “Halving Initiative,” he also supported the protest against the weakening of the SRG’s presence in Bern and advocated for the SRG to have strong local roots.

Even though the media dossier is of secondary importance compared to major issues like climate change or transportation within the DETEC, it is not without its appeal. Because the dossier is relatively straightforward, there is a greater chance of success here. In eight or twelve years, it will be possible to create something that stands on its own two feet. Albert Rösti’s task will now be to wrap up the existing projects in such a way that they don’t resurface in the same place five years from now. Only then will it be possible to carry out this long-overdue reform in a single, major undertaking.

At a Glance: The Most Important Issues in Media Policy

1. The Future Role of the SRG

What role does the SRG play in relation to private media? Where does it assert itself, and where does it take a back seat? This is something that needs to be debated in the coming months.

2. Changes in the Private Broadcasting Sector

In the radio sector in particular, technological advances have «outpaced» the regulatory framework. Adjustments are needed here soon.

3. Support, yes, but how?

There is a fairly broad consensus that the Swiss media industry needs further support. However, there is disagreement over what form this support should take. That is why clarity and consensus must be established.

4. Effectively Protect Benefits

How can we ensure that global online platforms do not profit from journalistic content that Swiss media outlets pay to produce?

m&k: Florian Holsboer, you are considered one of the world’s most renowned researchers on depression. Is it possible to describe this illness to someone who has not experienced it firsthand—and if so, how?

Prof. Florian Holsboer: For someone who has never experienced depression, it is nearly impossible to fully understand this very specific change in mood. Incidentally, this is true even for us psychiatrists—which is why we try to categorize the symptoms. Let’s say someone suffers from a persistently low mood, a lack of joy and interest, has no drive, tires easily, and sleeps poorly; someone is anxious, feels hopeless to the point of wanting to end their life, or has even attempted suicide… these can be signs of depression.

It is important to note that the clinical picture of depression is much more complex than the «sadness» that is often commonly attributed to patients.

Absolutely. Someone might be «sad» if they don’t get a vacation or if their favorite team gets relegated; someone whose relationship falls apart or who gets fired. But that feeling of sadness eventually passes. With depression, metaphorically speaking, it’s more a matter of being «unable to resonate» with the melody of life—neither in times of joy nor in times of sorrow. Take, for example, postpartum depression, where a woman experiences such a severe depressive mood after giving birth that she cannot feel any joy about her newborn child or even accept the baby at all. This is terrible for everyone involved, and it has nothing to do with sadness.

While we’re on the subject of patterns and formal criteria: In «business jargon,» the term «burnout» has become established in recent years to describe situations where people have to withdraw from their daily work due to depressive symptoms. Has this helped to destigmatize depression—or has it had the exact opposite effect?

Burnout carries no stigma, which is why people would rather have burnout than depression. The term emerged a few years ago and has increasingly been «superimposed» on a diagnosis of depression, because it carries a quasi-positive connotation: «This is someone who was passionate about something and dedicated themselves to it, pushed beyond their own limits, and didn’t receive enough appreciation or gratitude.» Those who say they suffer from depression, on the other hand, often fear being viewed by others as «failures» or «weaklings.».

Of course, it’s not «weakness» but rather a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental factors that triggers depression, right?

There is clear evidence that there is a strong genetic predisposition to depression. Here’s an example: In identical twins, the genes are structurally identical. If one sibling develops depression over the course of their life, the other sibling’s risk is 50 percent—which is about five times higher than in the general population. However, it is only 50 percent; this means that, in addition to the genetic contribution, other external factors must also play a causal role. There is no single «depression gene»; rather, there are likely dozens of genes that contribute to the predisposition. We do not inherit a predisposition to depression solely through our parents’ genes; it can also be acquired through trauma, especially during adolescence. This relatively new field of research is called epigenetics. Regardless of whether we have inherited a predisposition to depression from our parents or acquired it through traumatic experiences during adolescence, the triggering factors are usually external influences. These can include prolonged stress, whether at work or in our personal lives. Illness or hormonal changes—such as those that occur after the birth of a child—can also be the cause.

Time and again, we hear and read the hypothesis that, in our fast-paced, globalized world, depression has become a «widespread disease.» Wasn’t it like that in the past—or did we simply have less data back then than we do today?

We won’t be able to determine easily whether depression has increased: We have different diagnostic criteria today, and despite the stigma that still exists, people are now more open about mental illness and are willing to speak out about it publicly. I don’t believe that depression is on the rise overall simply because we’re under more stress. Even 100 years ago, many people were depressed. Think of the stressors that existed back then—social inequality, a lack of healthcare, major wars… The «triggers» for a predisposition to depression were certainly no fewer than they are today.

There are currently several external factors that are taking a toll on people’s mental health: the pandemic and its consequences, the war in Ukraine—all of this combined is creating a complex situation that is entirely new to most of us. Is this reflected in an increase in the number of cases of mental illness, particularly depression?

Yes, we are indeed seeing certain effects. Especially among young people, by the way… I just read a study from South Korea that details how the number of cases of depression and suicides among young women has risen since 2020. This will likely level off again over the years, but a temporary «spike» is evident. However, I’d also like to ask whether this is solely due to the «cumulative crises» of the present—or also to the sometimes sensationalist portrayal of these crises in the media.

Would you like to comment on this question yourself?

Fear of a climate apocalypse has become both a media and a political tool—a tool for advancing economic and ideological interests. That said, I don’t deny that it’s good and important to use our resources wisely. But do we really have to act as if the world were on the brink of destruction? Does UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres have to say, «We are digging our own grave,» and claim we’re on a «highway to climate hell»? Or does Greta Thunberg have to urge us to «panic» because of climate change? Imagine what that does to a child when they hear they’re on their way to climate hell and the world is going to end tomorrow. The same goes for the war cries of nearly all political parties, including one that previously defined itself as «peace-oriented» and had been making a name for itself among the younger generation. Claims such as the need to defeat Russia, the risk of a Third World War, and other horror scenarios—just like the looming climate apocalypse—have the potential to permanently traumatize young people, thereby increasing their risk of developing depression later in life. To guard against this, I recommend examining the facts for yourself and forming your own judgment as to whether things are really as bad as they seem. This is how we gain the resilience we need to avoid falling into pessimism about the future and resignation.

Resilience is a good keyword—many people would like to cultivate this trait and become more «resilient.» Can resilience be «trained»?

There are people who are by nature more at peace with themselves and take a laid-back approach to life. Then there are those who go through life one moment on cloud nine, the next moment deeply saddened. And there are the sensitive, delicate souls who often feel hurt—but who, in turn, achieve marvelous things in art, for example, and give us so much beauty. These are not meant to be generalizations, but merely examples of the breadth of human personality traits. If you’re someone who gets easily irritated, is easily thrown off balance, and worries about world events, it might help to ask yourself: «Where do I feel a loss of control? And how can I regain control?»

Could you elaborate on that?

If you want to become more resilient in the face of the mounting crises of our time, ask yourself: «Do I have to accept everything I hear in the news at face value? Does the general risk assessment offered by various experts correspond to the individual risk I’m exposed to? What are the facts that are supposed to make us panic right now?» I can only speak for myself, but I’ve been around for quite a while, and whenever I ask myself these questions, I always come to a point where I say: «Yes, there are serious problems, crises, and war. There are problems we need to solve. At the same time, many people are still doing well—even better than before! Life expectancy has never been higher than it is today. Never in history has at least basic healthcare been accessible to so many people. And democracies are courageously standing up to autocracies—so courageously that we can hope they will prevail.» You know, my father was born in 1905, lived through two world wars, and died at the age of fifty-three from an illness that would be easily treatable today. What kind of life was that? In direct comparison, I feel very privileged—and that’s just a difference of one generation.

Critical, pragmatic, and ultimately positive reflection—prescribed, so to speak. I like that.

(laughs) There’s no point in all of us feeling guilty right now, walking around «in a penitent’s shirt,» and constantly looking up to see if the sky is about to fall on our heads. We should engage with the present openly but calmly, form our own opinions—and tackle vague fears. After all, fear gets in the way of clear thinking.

Now you’ve given our readers some good advice—but you do the same for top executives, athletes, and high achievers from all areas of society and public life. Do these people primarily want your advice—or do they mainly want someone to listen to them, to «be understood»?

In a recent episode of my podcast «Alles nur im Kopf,» I speak with legendary goalkeeper Oliver Kahn, whom I’ve known for many years. He sums it up perfectly: Sometimes you need a little advice; sometimes you just need someone who’s a good listener. When I consult with elite athletes or figures from politics and business, the individual situation is always the deciding factor. That said, there might be a few universal tips after all.

Would you share these?

If you want to perform well—perhaps even better or more effectively than others—then you need to focus. In important games, Oliver Kahn would follow the ball’s movements in an almost meditative way, tuning out all the «distractions» around him. That’s focus! If you’re in a leadership position—in whatever capacity—and have to make far-reaching decisions, then stop multitasking. Concentrate on what’s essential; work through one thing at a time, undisturbed, in the «flow.» Avoid the subjunctive. Be present and own your emotions. Be approachable and use your «soft skills.» This isn’t just allowed—it’s actually desirable. However: Still maintain a certain distance from the people you encounter in your professional environment. At the end of the day, it’s still your job—not your personal life.

Professor Holsboer, I find you to be a very «upbeat» and cheerful conversationalist. Nietzsche once wrote: «If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.» How have you managed to avoid sinking into an abyss yourself, even after several decades of researching and treating depression?

That’s not always easy—you’re absolutely right. I’ve seen countless seriously ill people in my life. But in my work with depression, I was often able to maintain a certain distance—not only through my work as a researcher, but also by offering hope in therapeutic settings: I knew, after all, that these people could be helped. That good results can be achieved with medication and talk therapy, and that you walk into the room in the morning and say, «Right, you’re feeling a little better today, aren’t you?» And then the patients look at you and reply, «Yes, I’m feeling a little better!» In situations like that, you’re actually giving each other hope—the patients on one side, and the professor on the other.

m&k and Advertisingweek.ch present this year's nominees for "Advertiser:in of the Year" 2023. In an exciting discussion, the expert jury nominated four top-class personalities from the industry: Andy Lusti, independent copywriter, concept developer and creative director, Manuel Wenzel, Chief Creative Officer at TBWA\Zurich, Switzerland Tourism Marketing Director André Hefti and Andrea Bison, Co-CEO, CCO and partner at Thjnk Zurich.

The jury has 50 percent voting rights, each member has one vote. The other 50 percent will be decided in a newsletter voting by Advertisingweek.ch determined. Subscribers to the newsletter can vote for their favorite during one week. Each voter must have subscribed to the newsletter with his or her own e-mail address. If you are not subscribed yet, you can subscribe to the free newsletter subscribe here. The online election ran until Friday, March 3, 2023.

Andy Lusti

Five years ago, Andy Lusti set up his own business as a creative director and concept designer/copywriter. "Drawers are for furniture, not for the head." he says and developed his own creative collective with Insighters, working with clients and agencies from the DACH region. Previously, the Grisons native worked at FCB, Jung von Matt, Advico Y&R, KSP, KNSK and Publicis. In addition, the passionate advertiser is involved in the board of ADC Switzerland and as an exam expert for the federal copywriter's exam. His courage to pursue rather unconventional approaches, such as in the campaign "Slope color" for Swisscom, was recently honored with gold at the ADCE Awards - and now also with a nomination for "Advertiser of the Year".

What qualities make you a good advertiser?

Andy Lusti: Curiosity, flexibility and conscientiousness. I try out new things non-stop, can get into anything and am very Insight-driven. Because I love unique solutions that creatively solve a relevant problem and thus inspire people.

As an advertiser, what is the most current advertising challenge for you?

Artificial Intelligence. From Maquettes to Photoshop to Midjourney and from Typewriter to Word to ChatGPT, the tools for art directors and copywriters have changed dramatically. With AI, the possibilities are multiplying and the pace continues to accelerate. This is a big challenge - and a big opportunity.

Does the classic agency model have a long-term future?

The needs and opportunities are constantly evolving - as are the competencies on the customer side. This requires new solutions and models again and again. Very few agencies today are still 'classic'. The most important characteristic for the future is flexibility. This applies to employees as well as to agencies.

Name a campaign that stood out to you in a positive way - but didn't originate with you.

"Designed in Bangladesh. Made in Europe." by Accenture Song for EKN Footwear. Already the title makes this great idea clear and the rest was at least as excellently implemented by the team around Alexander Grapp and Felix Zielke. Chapeau!

What inspired you to get into the advertising industry?

"WWW - The funniest commercials in the world" with Fritz Egner on Sat 1. A program full of entertaining films and funny ideas. One day, when I realized that people were being paid to make such cool commercials, I had a plan. But since no one in my Davos environment knew who was doing such things, I first went to SAWI.

When you have an idea, how do you know it's a good one?

Love. It starts with a tingling in my stomach that floods my whole body with endorphins and culminates in a euphoric grin. When that feeling hits, I dig until the diamond in the rough is exposed. Afterwards, I can't wait to split it and cut it to perfection.

The most important person in your career?

Every person on my professional path has been important and has made me what I am today. I have certainly benefited most from my bosses and team partners. I would like to take this opportunity to thank them all. No one would have thought that my professional path would lead to a nomination for the "Advertiser of the Year" ...

What bugs you about the advertising industry?

Envy and resentment. Each of us knows how difficult it is to find, sell and implement a really new and really good idea. I take my hat off to everyone who removes all stumbling blocks and moves people. Their solutions are an incentive for me to develop further and become better.

What do you feel when you see a campaign that you've penned?

Pride, doubt and anger. In exactly that order. Pride in having brought the idea out. Doubt whether it will really be as well received as hoped. Annoyance, because there is always something that could be done better.

What was the best thing you did in the past year?

Having the courage to be unreasonable and just go through with an idea like "runway color". With a small, efficient team and a customer who was an important part of it. It took us numerous nights and weekends, but the tingle just got stronger and stronger ... All the nicer that the daring plan actually worked out.

Campaigns by Andy Lusti

Manuel Wenzel

Manuel Wenzel has been part of the management team at TBWA\Zurich since August 2016 and has been solely responsible for creative since 2019. Before moving to Switzerland, he was a creative for Jung von Matt, DDB and Serviceplan and a lecturer at the Miami Adschool in Berlin for five years. He has had the privilege of representing Switzerland internationally on juries at Clio (film), OneShow (audio) and ADCE (brand experience). In the context of the LSA Bootcamp as well as the Young ADC, he is also committed to the up-and-coming generation of the industry.

What do you think is currently overrated?

Manuel Wenzel: Let me turn the question around: What is currently underestimated? I think: the idea. In my opinion, the power of an idea is dramatically underestimated in the face of all the metaverse, tech and performance marketing. There's a nice saying for this: Shit at the speed of light is still shit.

Which film title best describes your career?

The Little Hobbit.

The best testimonial ever?

The Panda in Never Say No to Panda.

What do you never want to have to hear about yourself?

That I am unfair. At least intentionally, unfortunately it happens from time to time that you make unfair decisions, but some of them you recognize perhaps a little too late as such.

If you hadn't become an advertiser, what then?

I always wanted to be a musician or a German professor. Being an advertiser somehow feels like the perfect mix of both.

When do you know an idea is good?

If my mother understands them and fun.

What do you still want to achieve at all costs?

In fact, I would love to see the TBWA\ ranked #1 in the See Swiss Creative Ranking. And I'm firmly convinced that we'll get there. Eventually.

Name a campaign that has recently caught your eye in a positive way - but didn't originate with you.

The biggest marketing coup of all time, of course: the "piste color" of my fellow competitor Andy Lusti, who is stupidly and fortunately also a friend of mine.

Why would you advise or discourage your children to seek a career in advertising?

I don't need the subjunctive. My daughter Marla will start her training as a graphic designer at Wirz at the end of the year. And I'm very happy for her.

Does the advertising industry receive enough appreciation?

No. In my view, "good" agencies do a great deal for brands, their perception and their success. This is not appreciated enough. But if you look at the fact that there is probably more bad advertising than good, this lack of appreciation is not surprising. The industry itself is partly to blame for its reputation: The swan song for agencies not infrequently comes from agencies themselves. Often after the founding of a "special agency" that has reinvented the wheel and then uses the end of classic agencies (whatever that is) as a founding narrative and relevance springboard.

What definitely does not come to your office?

Boredom.

Campaigns by TBWA\Zurich

André Hefti

André Hefti has been Chief Marketing Officer at Switzerland Tourism since 2018, where he is responsible for global marketing. Prior to that, he spent 15 years in the consumer goods industry in various international marketing functions. He is married with three children and lives with his family in French-speaking Switzerland.

What would you most like to promote?

Since my childhood, I have enjoyed spending vacations in the Swiss mountains. It is a great privilege for me to be able to promote Switzerland as a travel destination. I prefer to promote products whose value proposition convinces me and with which I can identify.

What advertising should be banned?

Any advertising for travel destinations outside of Switzerland should be banned. Switzerland offers everything for maximum recreation that one could wish for. Seriously: In principle, all legal products should be allowed to be advertised. Always within the framework of competition law, fairness or the protection of minors. In addition, advertising should never bore or promise falsehoods. The clientele sees through everything.

What was the best thing you did in the last five years?

From a professional point of view, the decision to take on responsibility for the global communication of Swiss tourism was a milestone. The best thing my team and I did during that time was probably to win Roger Federer as the official ambassador for the destination. With him, we catapulted ourselves into another league for destination marketing.

What inspired you to get into the advertising industry?

I grew up in a world where brands didn't matter. We didn't have a TV at home. But the awareness that there was something out there that wanted to seduce me triggered a special fascination. Shaping brands and thus their perception by the public is a particularly appealing challenge.

Can you tell us a little secret?

As a student, I applied twice to an advertising agency. Twice I was rejected. If I win the "Egon," I might apply there again.

Which award would you like to win one day?

Until recently, I rather dreamed of a finisher certificate at a triathlon. The nomination for the "Egon" was definitely not on my bucket list. But it is a great appreciation for the work of my team. The prize would be an honor that would fill us with pride.

Who would you like to see in one of your campaigns?

After Robert De Niro and Anne Hathaway, we have another fascinating personality at the start this year. With the Comedian Trevor Noah we will further strengthen the charm of Switzerland as a travel destination. And I hope the journey doesn't end here.

Where does the Swiss advertising industry stand in international comparison?

It often does not receive the appropriate appreciation internationally. I previously worked for international clients for 15 years. Swiss agencies hardly played a role. The usual suspects from London, Paris and New York get the nod. And not always rightly so. Even they only boil with water.

Does the advertising industry receive enough appreciation for its work?

The life cycle of good advertising has become glaringly short. Successfully activating even outstanding advertising over a longer period of time is a challenge. Strategic foresight, focus and the highest standards are required. That's why it's all the more important to build communication platforms that can be used over the long term. Many don't have the vision or the patience. If you can't convince the company to think in the long term, you won't receive the appreciation for your work that you had hoped for.

What is currently overestimated?

Digitization. If everyone pursued insight and creative ideas so vehemently, some brands could gain a sustainable competitive advantage. Creativity will gain in importance despite or precisely because of digitization.

Switzerland Tourism Campaigns

Andrea Bison

Six years ago, Andrea Bison founded Thjnk Zurich with Alexander Jaggy. Before that, she worked in Hamburg at Jung von Matt, Springer & Jacoby, Kempertrautmann and Thjnk for clients such as Bild, Mercedes-Benz, Audi and McDonald's. She is nominated for Advertiser of the Year for the third time. A native of German-speaking Switzerland, she is the mother of three children and lives with her family in Zurich.

What would you work for free?

Andrea Bison: For a good cause and for my family.

How has advertising changed?

A good idea is still a good idea. Otherwise, everything feels different.

The best book you've read lately?

"Brain Cells Love Blind Cow". In her book, Anette Prehn shows how creativity and play strengthen the brain for life. I find her thoughts on "brain-smart communication" particularly exciting, and they are valuable not only when dealing with children.

If you hadn't become an advertiser - what then?

Psychologist or founder of a re-use platform for children's things and toys.

Does the classic agency model have a future?

The question is what is meant by "the classic model"? In my view, our agency model has a long-term future as long as we remain constantly in transformation.

What are you sorry for?

That our new Media Markt image campaign fell victim to the pandemic shortly before the start of production in early 2020.

What inspired you to get into the advertising industry?

It fascinated me to be able to tell stories and messages in such a condensed form and thus to build up and trigger such strong emotions for a brand that people talk about it and remember it years later.

Why would you advise or discourage your children to seek a career in advertising?

Our industry offers plenty of room for creativity, innovation, diversity, variety, exciting people and development. We are close to people and their needs with our work, the work result can be experienced and seen, and our product has an influence on social perception and opinion-forming. I think that's a great perspective for young people.

What role do awards play in the advertising industry?

If they are not overrated, they are an incentive and motivation for all those who burn for ideas and creativity. And they are a way, like competitions in sports, to measure one's own performance and receive recognition.

Which award would you like to win one day?

The Grand Prix in Cannes.

Which feature film have you seen most often so far?

"A gift is still too expensive" with Tom Hanks. One of the biggest laughing fits I've ever seen. We watched it over and over and imitated the laughing fit to perfection.

Does the advertising industry receive enough appreciation?

I can't speak for the industry, but we are grateful for a lot of appreciation we receive from our customers.

Why aren't there more women in the top echelons of the Swiss advertising industry?

In my eyes, this is mainly due to the social conditions and opportunities that women and families have - or don't have.

Thjnk Zurich campaigns

The Award

The title "Advertiser of the Year" has been awarded by Werbewoche since 1977. You can find all previous "Werber:ins of the Year" in the Hall of Fame. Information on all nominees, the "Advertiser:in of the Year" election and a full-length video interview can be found at here. The online election starts on Friday, February 24, 2023 via newsletter. All subscribers to the Werbewoche and m&k newsletters are eligible to vote. Register here for free. The final winner of the "Egon" trophy will be determined 50/50 by the newsletter readership and the "Advertiser of the Year" jury.

My ambitious goal for 2023 was to become a healthier and more athletic version of myself. Dryuary—the goal of abstaining from alcohol in January—fell apart within the first few days due to the realities of my life. As part of Veganuary—eating a completely vegan diet in January—I gave the cheese counter at the supermarket a wide berth. I also had to skip a few of my favorite recipes. All in all, Veganuary required a great deal of self-control.

From a marketing perspective, challenges like Migros’ Veganuary are a great concept. As a brand, you attract attention; consumers try out new products from your lineup; and, ideally, you build a loyal vegan customer base for a month. But is such a month really worth it for consumers? Are they able to maintain their new habits in the long term?

Research shows that the number of repetitions has a positive long-term effect: the more repetitions, the sooner a new behavior becomes second nature. But how many repetitions do I actually need? And what happens if I take a few «cheat days»?

In the 1950s, Maxwell Malz «observed» that patients need 21 days to get used to their new faces after facial surgery. That would be good news for my Veganuary! However, more recent research has found that behaviors must be practiced for an average of 66 days in order to be maintained long-term. The number of days also depends heavily on the complexity of the chosen task: For example, it’s assumed that it takes fewer days to get into the habit of drinking a glass of water before a meal than it does to stick with a grueling workout.

And of course, I’ve had a few cheat days as well. We’ve all been there: You start out highly motivated, until the stress of everyday life catches up with you again. Is everything lost at this point? Research suggests that short breaks—such as a single day—have only a very minor effect on the development of a habit. So you can safely take a day off, but it shouldn’t be more than a few days.

So, as expected, January 2023 didn’t turn me into a fully-fledged vegan. However, I discovered new recipes, bought new products, had some interesting taste experiences, and have certainly taken a step closer to my “optimized self.” Despite all that, I’m going to indulge in some cheese again in February!

* Prof. Dr. Johanna Gollnhofer She is an associate professor of marketing and one of the co-directors of the Institute for Marketing and Customer Insight at the University of St. Gallen (IMC-HSG). In our magazine, she writes monthly about exciting, sensational, or curious marketing studies from around the world.

It’s not exactly easy to strike up a conversation with one of the world’s most famous economists: Robert J. Shiller, Nobel laureate and «father» of narrative economics, is closely guarded by Yale University’s communications department. Friendly but firm, the staff ensures that journalists do not disturb the professor’s schedule too much—if he himself has no time for a conversation or is tied up with other commitments (and the latter are numerous, even for a man who will soon turn eighty), even charming persistence yields no results. When, after weeks of planning, a phone call about his theories finally takes place, the positive side of that «all or nothing» principle becomes apparent: in the form of an exceptionally astute and humorous interview subject.

m&k: Professor Shiller, you are one of the world’s leading economists. In 2013, you were awarded the Nobel Prize for your work on how narratives spread throughout society and influence major economic events. Before we delve into your theories—which are arguably more relevant than ever—let’s take a look at the current situation. Given the many different crises piling up around the globe, what are you particularly concerned about right now?

Prof. Robert J. Shiller: You’ve summarized my work quite well: I examine the spread of narratives and ask myself to what extent «viral narratives» influence the economy. The umbrella term for this field is «narrative economics.» At the moment, an extremely complex web of narratives, speculations, and rumors is circulating, and some of them are, of course, extremely alarming: for example, the idea that the conflict in Ukraine could lead to a nuclear exchange between NATO and Russia. Just this morning, I read a newspaper article discussing how the Russian president is deliberately fueling this idea—with vague, coded threats directed at various European countries. This should give us all pause for thought. At the same time, I find it—to put it mildly—strange that the narrative of nuclear war has already become somewhat «worn out,» because it has been invoked by various actors more or less since the beginning of the conflict. And while a geopolitical conflict rages in Europe, we are simultaneously experiencing a technological revolution of epic proportions. Regarding this, however—in response to your question—I wouldn’t say that I’m «concerned,» but rather that I think about it a lot.

Would you like to share your thoughts with us?

The way people talk about ChatGPT is a good example of your idea of «narrative economics»: Few truly understand what’s going on «behind the scenes» with ChatGPT—but many believe the technology is ushering in a new era. And that has a direct impact on the funding of related research, investments in tools and stocks, and the forecasts in the newspapers…

Yes, ChatGPT and the discourse surrounding the technology are, in fact, a good example in several respects of what my research focuses on. In my «Nobel Prize book,» the latest edition of which was published in 2019—I believe the title is simply «Narrative Economy» here in Switzerland?—I discuss what are known as «persistent narratives»: These are narratives that gain such immense power that they constantly mutate, appearing, disappearing, and returning throughout the ages… and so on. More than 2,000 years ago, Aristotle pondered what would happen if «tools were to perform their own work.» He was referring to mythological machines such as the «tripod of Hephaestus» and wondered whether such machines would replace slaves. And whether society would then grant the slaves their freedom or try to get rid of them. This is not far removed from the discussion we are having today about artificial intelligence and its potential impact on the labor market. And that is why we can say that the narrative of the «effects of technological change,» in its various forms, is a «persistent narrative.».

Could that also explain why so many people are fascinated by Bitcoin or entrepreneurs like Elon Musk? The facts leave room for doubt, but the accompanying narrative is compelling: A Tesla or a Bitcoin is seen as a ticket to the future, and you can buy that ticket—if you have enough money.

I try not to make specific companies or individuals the focus of my conversations. That said, I would agree with you. When it comes to digital currencies like Bitcoin, but also to some entrepreneurs and politicians, a cornerstone of the narrative economy becomes clear: namely, that it’s often more important for people to be talked about on a broad scale—while at the same time not scrutinizing the facts too closely. People have always formed communities by telling each other stories, and the impact of these stories—stories we enjoy listening to, that help us understand the world around us, or that support our belief systems—can therefore be very powerful. Even to the point where one… puts the narrative first and the facts, so to speak, deliberately second. I’d rather not go into detail here—I don’t want to get too political (laughs)—but did you also hear about the conspiracy theory in Europe back then that Hillary Clinton was allegedly running a child prostitution ring out of the back room of a pizza restaurant? That’s obviously more than just crazy—it’s absurd and a disgusting accusation. But there were people whose beliefs aligned with it, and they helped spread that conspiratorial narrative.

Well, yes, I tend to think in a more interdisciplinary way than many of my colleagues. About a century ago, my department at Yale was still called «Economics and Sociology,» but those disciplines were eventually formally separated… And today I sometimes wonder whether the researchers working there even talk to sociologists anymore! (laughs) No, I’m probably exaggerating, but there’s some truth to it. Many economists believe they have to conduct their academic work within a narrow framework in order to stand out as experts in their field. I, on the other hand, have preferred to work with colleagues from anthropology, folklore, and literary studies as well.

It wouldn't work any other way, either, if you agree with the theory that narratives interact with the economy. In that case, you definitely need the help of storytelling experts, right?

I am convinced of that. However, I would like to emphasize that I would never claim that narratives are the only factor influencing the economy—that would be a criminally oversimplified view. But as I’ve already mentioned, people tend to think in terms of stories. And they’re usually willing to resort to the simplest possible explanation to make sense of their environment—this complicated, chaotic world—both intellectually and emotionally. Some of these approaches become narratives, and an even smaller fraction of those narratives then spreads like an epidemic. The rest fade away. Asking which path a narrative will take is like asking what makes a novel a bestseller—or a pop song a hit. That’s why we’re taking an interdisciplinary approach: I don’t know much about novels or music, but there are colleagues who do.

While a conflict rages in Europe, we are simultaneously witnessing a technological revolution of epic proportions.

As a former literature and philosophy student, your theories sounded convincing to me from the very beginning. However, you didn’t win the Nobel Prize for proving something that was already obvious: you received it for establishing narrative economics as a legitimate branch of economics. Why didn’t someone else try that before you?

I wish I could give a spectacular answer to that question, but … I don’t know. (laughs) I guess I’ve always been very curious about what really drives things. And as I briefly mentioned earlier about how the academic world works… well, curiosity is sometimes stifled by the system there. People feel a certain pressure to «stick to their last,» as the saying goes. They want to establish themselves, make a name for themselves, land a tenured position, and get invited to conferences. Why don’t you attend an economics conference sometime—there you’ll meet people who do something similar to what you do and boast about the same kinds of collaborations that, by definition, have to take place within certain limits… You see where I’m going with this?

I do. And I'm wondering if there was a pivotal moment in your career when you thought, «I'm going to do things differently»?

To answer that, I have to go back to 1979, when my research was very much focused on the bond market. As I studied this market, I noticed that bond prices sometimes fluctuated quite significantly—more than they theoretically «should» have, given their reputation for a certain degree of stability. Where did these fluctuations come from? I wanted to know more about this and addressed the question in an article titled «The Volatility of Long-Term Interest Rates and Expectations Models of the Term Structure.» This paper, which I also cited in my Nobel Prize acceptance speech, laid the groundwork for the further development of my work. I increasingly incorporated behavioral economics, as well as psychological, sociological, and epidemiological factors, into my analyses of market movements. Then I shifted my focus from bonds to stocks, where there was even more volatility that was difficult to explain and even harder to predict. So… someone had to find a new way to make sense of it all. (laughs) I refused to accept the view held by many of my colleagues that markets are a «self-contained» system. A system that is, so to speak, detached from the world we live in and governed solely by its own rules and regulations. I also disagreed with my colleague Eugene Fama, who received the Nobel Prize in the same year as I did for popularizing the idea of «efficient markets.» Put simply, this idea holds that stock prices reflect all available information and therefore consistent alpha generation is impossible. This is only partially true. Stock prices—as I have repeatedly noted throughout our conversation—depend not only on facts and analyses, but also on the stories and narratives constructed around them.

Right now, there is an extremely complex web of stories, speculations, and rumors circulating, and some of them are, of course, extremely concerning.

You have developed a kind of interdisciplinary «toolkit» to conduct rigorous research on the spread of narratives in the business world. What does it «include»?

(laughs) We’re actually still in the process of developing the «toolkit»; it’s still a work in progress. And it’s probably far from «finished»—perhaps it never will be. Because the dynamic way in which narratives evolve necessitates its continuous refinement. One component that has been very important from the very beginning is folklore research: this discipline was introduced in your part of the world by the Brothers Grimm, among others, in the early 19th century. They wanted to create a compendium of fairy tales and legends that were widespread in various regions and across national borders—an indicator that these stories must have been old; otherwise, they would not have had time to «travel so far and wide.» Take, for example, «Little Red Riding Hood,» the story of a young girl in a red cloak who is chased by a wolf. Folklore experts have discovered that about 1,000 years before the fairy tale emerged in the version we know today, there was a book written in Latin that also told the story of a little girl. She wore a red coat, went for a walk alone in the forest—and encountered a wolf. Some details have changed over the centuries, but this is how we trace «enduring narratives.».

Absolutely. Think of Alexander the Great, who rode into the city of Gordion and was confronted with the problem of the Gordian Knot: There was a prophecy that whoever could untie the knot would become the ruler of all Asia. But no one had yet succeeded in untangling the intricate knot. In a flash of genius, Alexander realized that the prophecy said nothing about how the knot was to be untied—he simply drew his sword—and cut it through. This not only earned him fame and had his likeness minted on coins (laughs), but we still use the narrative of someone «cutting through a Gordian knot» to this day in almost every conceivable field.

That's right. I recently read about this in connection with a management consulting firm that wanted to lead a company back to success by «cutting the Gordian knot.» Specifically, that meant: We’ll let go of some of the employees, tear down the existing structures, and build something new.

(laughs) Well, I guess that's one way to do it.

Let’s stay with the idea of the «toolbox» for the narrative economy for a moment, Professor Shiller. You mentioned that it needs to be constantly updated. Now I’m wondering whether digitization and the incredibly rapid spread of narratives via social media have made your research even more complicated.

The simple answer is: yes. But fortunately, technological advances in communication channels also mean that our methods for analyzing these channels are becoming increasingly sophisticated. These developments go hand in hand, so to speak. In general, we simply have to take even more narratives—along with their variations and new channels of dissemination—into account as we try to answer the questions of our time.

Off the cuff: What kind of question do you find interesting right now?

Last year, there was a very brief recession in the United States that lasted only a few months. Why did it end so quickly? Why did people change their minds so quickly? There must be a very complex and interesting cluster of narratives behind this. Perhaps something was said, or a message was sent at just the right time, to reassure people? If we had an index of all the narratives that have reversed recessions in the past—or an index of all the narratives that have influenced economic developments over the centuries—we could verify this fairly quickly. However, even though we have a good idea of some «persistent narratives,» we are still far from having a complete index.

That sounds like a very interesting project.

Yes, but not for me anymore. (laughs) I can't do everything.

Robert James Shiller is an American economist and professor of economics at Yale University. In 2013, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics—along with Lars Peter Hansen and Eugene Fama. His work focuses on the foundation and further development of «narrative economics,» which examines the influence of stories on economic events.

The pandemic is now a distant memory; the advertising market has generally stabilized and is back to normal. While traditional media such as TV and print are generally on the decline, a positive trend is emerging in the DOOH/OOH sector—based on analysis by Mediafocus (gross advertising spending) and advertising market statistics. As Yves Kilchenmann, CEO of Livesystems, explains, continuous growth can be expected in the DOOH sector: «This is realistic, especially when you consider factors such as population growth, the resulting increase in mobility, and the growing inventory.»

«Bounce-back skills»

APG|SGA echoes this sentiment: Outdoor advertising is back on track, having demonstrated its ability to bounce back following the lifting of COVID-19 restrictions and reaffirming its role as the last true mass medium. Nevertheless, the DOOH/OOH industry faces various challenges that demand attention. «At the political level, the foundation for DOOH advertising is not yet fully in place. Hardly any other medium is subject to restrictions on this scale,» says Kilchenmann. Here, it is important to establish clear political conditions and not to hinder the natural forces of the market. Furthermore, the legal frameworks vary greatly from canton to canton, which would require a high degree of flexibility on the part of providers and advertisers.

Flexible, digital offerings

As Nadja Mühlemann, Head of PR at APG|SGA, points out, the industry also faces the challenge of meeting the growing demand for flexible and digital offerings for advertising clients. On the one hand, this involves the continued rollout and further development of digital infrastructure; on the other hand, the trend toward last-minute bookings is once again strengthening significantly. Campaigns—including traditional ones—are now in increasingly flexible demand and require faster, streamlined processes for immediate poster placements or spot airings.Furthermore, meeting demanding client objectives for branding and sales activation has a strong influence on the development of OOH. «Guaranteed visibility, paired with strong brand perception, is the hallmark of OOH and will continue to grow,» explains Mühlemann. On a positive note, the opportunities for activation are expanding thanks to the growing range of Digital Out of Home offerings, new distribution channels such as programmatic advertising, and ever-improving audience data—making OOH a valuable complement to any online video campaign.

High Impact

But what impact does outdoor advertising actually have? Yves Kilchenmann comments: «Billboard advertising, whether digital or analog, aims to raise awareness of a brand or product or to build its image. The medium generates a large number of impressions cost-effectively and quickly, is generally very popular in Switzerland, and is perceived as appealing by consumers.» Recent studies show that DOOH has a positive impact on sales and is also perceived as more innovative, creative, informative, entertaining, and trustworthy compared to other advertising channels. Furthermore, DOOH advertising is also more memorable.

And Nadja Mühlemann adds: «Reaching the 15- to 49-year-old target audience relevant to female advertisers is becoming increasingly challenging. The role of OOH in the media mix is therefore becoming increasingly important for achieving the set branding goals.» DOOH offers additional options to complement this, rounding out the online mix and enabling even better coverage of defined audiences on a larger scale. Mühlemann points to WEMF’s MACH Strategy 2022, which now integrates Digital Out of Home as a separate media category. The authors of the study attribute this to the rapid expansion of DOOH.

«Within the communications mix, outdoor advertising holds a special position with high impact due to its unique strengths. After all, in Switzerland, the »poster’ remains the last and only medium that demonstrably reaches the masses and is actually seen,” emphasizes Mühlemann. The role of out-of-home media is becoming even more important in light of the need for smarter and more precise targeting and hard performance data. Outdoor advertising creates visibility, credibility, and brand awareness.

Good Prospects for Growth

Both Mühlemann and Kilchenmann are optimistic about the industry’s future. «DOOH will continue to grow strongly in the coming years. On the one hand, digitalization in Switzerland is not yet as advanced as in other countries, on the other hand, new technological possibilities—such as the integration of data, content, and social media, along with the associated booking and planning via programmatic advertising—will make DOOH even smarter, more efficient, and more attractive, open up new customer groups, and further strengthen the medium,» says the CEO of Livesystems.

According to Mühlemann, it is crucial right now for companies across all industries to showcase their brands, products, and services with broad reach and visibility in public spaces and among all segments of the population. In the Forecast 2023, both the LSA/SWA Industry Indicator and the PwC Switzerland Entertainment and Media Outlook 2023 see very good growth opportunities for (D)OOH—a fact that encourages both service providers and clients.

REQUESTED

«The opposition usually comes from small,
»fundamentalist circles"

Markus Ehrle is CEO of APG|SGA and president of the Outdoor Advertising Association Switzerland AWS.

m&k: Markus Ehrle, you are the president of the ASW. What are your hopes for the OOH year 2023?

Markus Ehrle: (laughs) The best way to start a new year is with plenty of optimism. My hopes—or rather, my wishes—are that the war in Ukraine will end soon and that a sense of normalcy will return for everyone. I also hope that even more advertisers will recognize the outstanding and unique qualities, as well as the environmental and economic benefits, of analog and digital outdoor advertising, and incorporate them into their communications mix for customer engagement and branding.

What are you particularly looking forward to?

In the fall of 2023, the new industry event «Woohw!» will take place for the first time, featuring expert presentations, an awards ceremony, and a big party. This will provide the out-of-home media sector and the entire communications and creative industries with a fitting platform that has national reach and broad support. The event is organized by the AWS (Outdoor Advertising Switzerland) association and its members. The joint initiative for «WOOHW!» underscores the defining and enduring significance of the poster—whether in analog or digital form—in cross-media competition as well as a cultural asset.

Do small OOH companies a chance of survival in the future or in the medium term, they will from the big ones Swallowed by players?

I'm sure you're referring to the TX Group's acquisition of Clear Channel. I would be
It would be premature to see this as part of a broader «big versus small» phenomenon. Smaller outdoor advertising companies, as niche providers, have had—and continue to have—good long-term prospects, in some cases for many years. In a small country like Switzerland, it stands to reason that there are smaller OOH companies with specialized offerings that are successful with their local or specific clientele, both today and in the future.

Where is urgent action needed?

Although it is one of the most popular forms of advertising, outdoor advertising is coming under increasing political pressure. Opposition to billboards, especially digital advertising media, usually originates in small, fundamentalist circles. However, unnecessary bans do not address the problem that people would like to see solved, but rather harm the people who work in the advertising industry. The public values outdoor advertising; it perceives it as informative and appealing. And businesses, the cultural sector, and many other clients value its credibility and visibility, as well as its favorable price-to-performance ratio. Furthermore, the billboard industry is important for the economy, democracy, and society. Restricting it means limiting freedom of information and freedom of expression. This is problematic from an economic, cultural, and political standpoint. We are therefore strongly committed to free advertising.