Kersti Kaljulaid: At the border

m&k Kersti Kaljulaid, you stepped down as President of Estonia in 2021 - but by no means retired into private life afterwards: With your foundation, you are committed to democracy, free media and equality. Let's start with democracy: why does the term need to be at the center of our attention in 2024?

Kersti Kaljulaid: There are many reasons for this, which is a reason in itself (laughs). There is no longer just one or two crises to worry about, we are experiencing a so-called perma-crisis fueled by many factors. There are elections taking place all over the world that are highly threatened by Russian interference - with artificial intelligence, fake news and deep fakes, the public is made suspicious; people don't know what to believe in anymore. We Eastern Europeans have long been used to Russian interference, we know the game, only the means are new - but other European countries are now also aware of the dangers; fortunately! I still remember reading the sentence "German freedom is also defended on the Internet" on a banner on the outside wall of the German Ministry of Defense and thinking: "Yes, that's right!" But will this realization come in time? Let's hope so.

 

We are now in the middle of the topic of "disinformation and democracy": when I spoke to think tank founder Sasha Havlicek about Russian propaganda for the last issue of m&k, she said that there was certainly an awareness of the dangers of Russian propaganda - but that there was a lack of effective countermeasures.

The best way to counter misinformation is to strengthen established media outlets that do reputable work. If the public can always access trustworthy state or private media sources in print, radio, television or online, then at least many people are more likely to get their information from there - and not from other, dubious sources. I know how difficult it has become to finance serious journalism ... but that should not be a reason to continue to weaken the genre. To be honest, I see an additional "environment problem": there are apps or online platforms that place in-depth reports right next to tabloid journalism. I am always available to talk to the media, but I don't want to find my own statements in the context of clickbait stories. The dividing lines need to become sharper again; there need to be media outlets that say: "This may be heavy fare, but you should watch it!"

"We Eastern Europeans have long been used to Russian influence, only the means are new."

 

You mentioned earlier that countries in Eastern Europe have been exposed to Russian disinformation campaigns for a long time - and that Western Europe has been slow to understand what systematic disinformation actually means. Was it difficult to sensitize your colleagues in politics to the phenomenon?

In Estonia, we experienced first Soviet and then Russian propaganda within the same generation. I grew up knowing that everything in the newspaper was controlled by the Soviet propaganda machine - as Estonian president, I had to deal with the fact that sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly pro-Russian channels, social media platforms and Twitter bots were used to stir up sentiment against democratic institutions. That's why I also say: I welcome the fact that Google and Microsoft declared at the Munich Security Conference this year that they want to take stronger action against fake news and deep fakes - but let's not forget that these are just modern symptoms of an old, serious problem. The view of colleagues in Western Europe, who had a different view of the world due to their background and upbringing, had to be sharpened - but, as I said, this has now been achieved quite well. Incidentally, it's not just about politicians internalizing the danger posed by Russia. It's also about them exercising great caution in their own use of the media and the distribution of messages. It can be very tempting to spread a rumor about political opponents before it is even clear whether there is any basis for it. However, this may feed disinformation into the discourse.

 

As a former head of state, are you primarily concerned about conflicts in the digital space - or do you also see Estonia as being exposed to a physical, military threat?

The only safe place - by which I mean a conceptual place, not a geographical one - is currently NATO. It guarantees its members common defense, and since Estonia is a member of NATO, we do not fear open aggression from Russia at the moment. However, Putin has indicated that he is planning to expand and diversify his attempts at intimidation, and we must be prepared for this. He will try to hinder our quest for progress, play our various population groups off against each other or harm us in some other way. We Estonians have no illusions about who or what he is. There used to be a persistent rumor that Putin was a master strategist who calculated his every move - and every possible move of his opponents - in advance. Well, what has he shown? He has bombed cities in which people live that he supposedly wants to protect because they are "historically Russian" - and thus ensured that practically the whole of Ukraine has turned away from Russia. He has fast-tracked Finland and Sweden into NATO. And he has encouraged the deepening of European integration. All of this is contrary to his goals, which either means that he is less strategically savvy than expected - or that there is also an irrational moment in his personality structure. And this brings us back to the beginning of your question: even though we feel secure in NATO, we have increased our defense spending; not just to two, but more than three percent of our economic output. Because ... we can never predict exactly what will happen.

"The only safe place ... conceptually, not physically ... is currently NATO."

 

Do you never doubt NATO's promise of support? There is always a discussion in the media about whether foreign soldiers would "die for Narwa" in an emergency ...

If NATO breaks its promise of support just once, it is immediately finished. Everyone involved in the alliance knows that. I am convinced that the members would fulfill their duty to help.

 

It's quite exciting for me that we're having this conversation in Austria - like the country where I live, Switzerland, the Republic is in favor of political neutrality and non-alignment. But this is only possible for both countries because they are surrounded by NATO states, isn't it?

Exactly. You know, the idea of neutrality stems - unfortunately - from an idealistic mindset that is no longer in keeping with the times: "We'll stay out of it, but people are welcome to meet and negotiate with us!" Please, you can do that if the other side is prepared to negotiate. But Russia has long since crossed the Rubicon of diplomacy. And every voice - whether it comes from Switzerland, Austria or certain interest groups within the NATO states - that calls for restraint, that demands that we should talk to Putin again, slows us down. Ultimately, only Russia benefits from this. Once again: I am glad that Chancellor Scholz and President Macron are now setting a good example. But for us Est:innen, that wasn't fast enough, and we made that clear (laughs).

 

You are a relatively small country, but enormously committed to supporting Ukraine. Right from the start.

Yes, because we understand. And because we look. Just to give you an example, I have traveled to Ukraine at least twice a year since the start of the war and have personally reported on the situation. It is terrible how many people are dying because other countries are reluctant to release aid. How much suffering could be avoided! The world could have been faster; it could still be faster. Then again, there is momentum, and in the end we will prevail - as we did during the Cold War. There is also something good about having experienced all this before: the confidence that the forces of freedom are ultimately stronger. In the 1970s, my father was conscripted as a soldier in the Soviet army to serve in Kaliningrad, and he watched Western planes patrolling the USSR's borders. The first Munich Security Conference 61 years ago was held to respond to the threat from Moscow. Nothing is new, and we know how it ended last time for those who wanted to oppress other peoples. Putin must feel that. He must not think for a second that he can end the war in Ukraine on his terms. We must not allow him to do that.

"Women affected by domestic violence are not helped if politicians keep their mouths shut."

 

I would like to talk about your social commitment, President Kaljulaid. Your foundation is not only committed to Ukraine, democracy and freedom of the press, but also to equal opportunities in Estonian society. Why is this issue so close to your heart?

Estonia has experienced a kind of turbo capitalism over the past three decades - due to the fact that there was no capitalism at all before. Of course, this did not automatically result in a social market economy - because we had too few resources and too little experience with the distribution of state funds for such an economy. That had been managed by others for decades. We first had to learn how to help alleviate the suffering of the weakest in society - how to support people with special needs ... to be honest, we weren't very good at that in the early 1990s. And even later, when I became president, I realized that we needed to catch up. I wanted us to engage in a collective discourse about how people with disabilities can feel like full members of the population. I wanted us to start seriously tackling domestic violence - to give the LGBTQI+ community a platform - to be tireless advocates for women's equality. As I said, I wanted to make the media even more independent. When I left office in 2021, some of the people and organizations I had worked with on all these issues expressed regret. So I said: "Instead of just regretting that I'm no longer president - let's just get on with it!" (laughs) And that's what we did.

 

The initiatives that you finance via the foundation start with children, right?

Yes, because - as much as this may sound like a phrase - they are the future of our society. We go into kindergartens and explain what "My body, my choice" means; in other words, that no one has the right to touch or even hurt children against their will - and that they have the right to defend themselves. We want the upcoming generation of Est:innen to have a positive self-image, that the children of today will refuse to accept things like domestic violence tomorrow. If you do a survey of adult Estonian women now, 40 percent of them say that they have been abused at home at least once in their lives - this has to stop! But we also explain in kindergartens and schools how to talk to each other without banging heads (laughs), how to express different points of view without simply breaking off the conversation because of differences. Because we understand what domestic political dynamics might otherwise develop in ten or twenty years' time. For me, Sweden's education policy is always an inspiration - that's the benchmark we use as a guide.

 

I like this approach: that you help Ukraine, raise money, "put out fires" and prepare your nation for possible conflicts, but that you also think in the medium and long term.

Everything is interconnected: By teaching our children values, we are shaping a generation that will be able to meet the challenges of the future. A generation that acts responsibly and thinks independently. This can only strengthen democracy - as can the reduction of social differences.

 

At the beginning of our conversation, we talked about the "perma-crisis" we are facing. Despite this, you seem surprisingly optimistic and full of energy. Doesn't the world situation sometimes make you frustrated and, yes, resigned?

If I were to claim that I am never frustrated, then that would be an outright lie. Of course, I'm not immune to worries, frustration and the occasional bout of resignation. But I've always been someone who likes to call a spade a spade instead of dwelling on problems. That helps. And as an active politician, it has sometimes earned me ... headlines.

 

For example?

In the first speech I gave as President on Estonian Independence Day, I said: "Today is a public holiday. That means that statistically more women are beaten than usual." Some people in the audience were piqued - but it's the truth. The women affected are not helped if politicians keep their mouths shut. We must always talk about the difficult issues when we know we can generate the greatest possible attention. Let's put our cards on the table - and then let's see what we can do.

Is your tendency towards positive actionism also culturally influenced?

You have to remember the history of my generation: When Estonia regained its independence, the median wage was 25 US dollars per month. Today we are at 1,800 US dollars. People have fought for this, bit by bit, and politicians have helped. We have worked tirelessly to be accepted into the European Union; to join NATO. Without the unconditional will to change, without pragmatism and without perseverance, none of this would have worked. I still maintain that we had to learn certain things in the 1990s - but at the same time I would say that we were very lucky back then, because the first leaders of free Estonia immediately showed the right instinct on key issues, such as national security.

 

Now we've talked about democracy, propaganda, NATO - and various elections that are due in 2024. In November, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are likely to run against each other again. How are we preparing for the fact that Trump could win this election?

I think it is wise and right that Europe is thinking more about its own defense and that concrete steps are being taken to strengthen the armies on the continent. At the same time, however, I am not known for seeing Donald Trump as a major risk to the continued existence of NATO - at least if you take his first term in office as an indicator. Well, he has repeatedly emphasized that some countries need to invest more in their protection, but so did Barack Obama. The latter, however ... there was no real fear that he would draw any consequences, let's put it that way. Trump kept his European colleagues in the dark about what he would do. But de facto, he was very consistent about protecting NATO's eastern flank: he visited Poland several times; considered establishing a permanent US base in the country. His vice president, Michael Pence, was extremely committed to strengthening US relations with Eastern Europe. Trump and Putin have - whether consciously or unconsciously, planned or unplanned - initiated a new European security architecture.

 

And ensured that Europe becomes less dependent on Russian gas.

That is true. Incidentally, some of the EU's sustainability goals are also linked to this - the expansion of renewable energies would probably never have been pushed to such an extent if the situation in Ukraine had not arisen. The tragedy that war brings with it - the unnecessary deaths - are unfortunately unaffected by this. But Putin has also achieved everything he didn't want to achieve in the energy sector. A master strategist, after all.

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Kersti Kaljulaid is an Estonian economist and politician. From 2016 to 2021, she was President of the Republic of Estonia - the fourth head of government since Estonian independence from the USSR and the first woman to hold the office since the state was founded in 1918. Today, she and her President Kaljulaid Foundation are committed to various social issues, including freedom of the press and freedom of expression, the promotion of democracy and education policy.

 

This article first appeared in the m&k print edition 6-7/2024.