"I'm already jealous when my three-year-old son watches Livio's Secret Santa video twenty times."

Livio Dainese (left) is Co-CEO and Chief Creative Officer of the Wirz agency in Zurich. He won the title of "Advertiser of the Year" in 2018. He is the father of two children and lives in Aarau. Timo Dainese (recths) is founder and managing partner of Zugerberg Finanz AG. Dainese has already been named "Asset Manager of the Year" three times by the magazine "Bilanz". He is the father of four children and lives in Baar.

m&k: Livio and Timo, you are probably one of the most successful sibling couples in the country. The "Advertiser of the Year" and the "Asset Manager of the Year" are brothers: So there must be a recipe for success in your family?

Livio Dainese: No, I don't think so (laughs). But we both had very different careers: my brother very early and determined, me rather late. Perhaps what my parents did particularly well with me was that they didn't let themselves get rattled. Even when I was 30 and still hadn't finished my studies.

What was your individual path to the job you have today?

Timo Dainese: I did my business degree and was in school until 20. After one year at a bank and another at an asset management company, I started my own business.

LD: I'm the opposite (laughs). I studied history, switched to business administration... and above all made music. Finally, I ended up studying art and, because I didn't want to do art, I applied to an agency. That was the beginning.

They grew up together in a village in Aargau - and saw how each other started their careers. Were there discussions because of the different approaches?

TD: During that time, we didn't have that much to do with each other. I mean, he's three years older than I am, and even when we were at school, we were a bit too far apart for me to give advice. The 15-year-old giving advice to the 18-year-old, that's not cool. (laughs)

LD: Someone once wanted to write a story about us, the two working-class kids with Italo backgrounds who want to outdo each other (laughs). Asserting themselves as "foreigners". Yet we grew up quite well protected and have an almost classic "Swiss" biography.

Because you're bringing that up: Is there really no competition between the two of you?

LD: No, actually and really not. We don't talk about our jobs much at all either. When we meet, we might talk briefly about business and otherwise about the kids and other topics. The parents are already proud when we win an award, but that doesn't lead to me having a competition with my brother. In my own business, I'm already more competitive... but I think that's okay. After all, I don't work so much to come last (laughs).

But even so, you must have had some kind of performance culture at home? Otherwise, you would hardly get this far.

TD: Ah, performance culture... rather: If you do something, you should do it right and make an effort. That already existed. Our father had a good job, but that wasn't the big issue. Our mother did a lot of social work, and I'm sure she'd be working nowadays, too. But we were never put under pressure that we "had" to have a great career.

The Dainese brothers - interpreted by illustrator Sandro Heierli for the June/July issue of m&k.

Livio, when you look at your brother's job: Which part do you find most exciting?

LD: So, first I would say - I didn't want to do the job, I couldn't do it. But I think it's cool that he built his own business - that it's "his thing." That's another experience, also another responsibility that it gives you. I think that's cool.

Timo - would you like to develop a campaign that the whole of Switzerland can later watch on TV?

TD: Of course I'm jealous when my three-year-old son watches Livio's Secret Santa video twenty times but doesn't want to hear a story from me (laughs). No, seriously, I'm like my brother: I couldn't do what he's doing. If you have an idea that gets attention in Switzerland or internationally, that's great. But I feel very comfortable in what I'm doing and like being my own boss.

Are there parallels between you as a person on the one hand, your jobs on the other?

TD: A large part of the time we "sell" something. We have to convince people of ideas and solutions; we need credibility, a concept and a clever strategy.

LD: We both run companies, yes. The "inventing pixies" part of my job is vanishingly small, unfortunately. I think my brother and I are both good at classifying things and finding solutions.

TD: And we are both discreet control freaks. You have to learn to delegate certain things as the size of the organization changes. But we both like to take another look at things in our companies. Then you say to the employees: "Hey, I trust you. So... let's see!" (laughs).

If you had to highlight one quality that you particularly appreciate in your brother - what would it be, Timo?

TD: Certainly the creativity he has. And he can assert himself. I imagine the advertising industry is very tough. Competition is fierce, everything is changing. To hold your own there is a real achievement.

What about you, Livio?

LD: His humor. We always have fun together. And I like that his children like my campaigns (laughs). And of course, I admire the courage and perseverance of how he went his way.

Of course, we would also like to ask you a little bit about current events. We're talking to each other at the beginning of June, the first Corona loosenings have been implemented. How "different" has your everyday life been in the past few months?

TD: I had planned a six-week vacation for the first time in twenty years and was in Hawaii when the pandemic broke out. We then had to go back, of course; on the one hand, because the captain wants to be on board at such a time, and should be. On the other hand, because otherwise we might not have been able to get a flight. And then, within one weekend, we changed the whole office to shift work and home office. The stock markets went on a spectacular downswing because of the virus.

Does actionism break out in your company in such a situation?

TD: There have always been crises with a strong impact on the stock markets. What was special this time was certainly the speed, with losses of twenty or thirty percent in just a few weeks. That has never been experienced before. But actionism is not breaking out, at least not here. As an investor, you are rewarded for getting through such crises, because in the end you have more return than someone who just keeps their money in an account. And it's then our job to reassure investors and not get nervous ourselves.

The advertising industry also suffered. How did Wirz cope with the situation?

LD: Actually - super (laughs). But that always involves coincidences and a bit of luck. We won a lot of new business, despite the crisis, but at the same time we knew that if we lost this or that pitch, we would have to bear the consequences.

You moved all the staff to the home office, didn't you?

LD: Yes, with sometimes 120 people in a video call. Anything goes, but it's not cool. I walk through the agency and see people I've never met in person because their onboarding took place during Corona. We have a lot of very young employees, and for them it was a huge bummer to sit in their apartments on Langstrasse for weeks. That's only funny if you can get out.

Do you take away any lessons learned from the past few months?

LD: I'm thinking about whether it's possible to reduce work space. Or whether you have to drive halfway across Switzerland for every half-hour meeting. Can't that be solved in another way? I commute an hour to the agency, and when you haven't done that for six weeks, you realize what a nonsense it is.

Do you believe in the saying "crisis as opportunity"?

TD: From a purely business perspective, such an event forces you to rethink and adjust a few things. This is the fourth major crisis since 2000. And our company has always taken steps forward because you are simply forced to focus on efficiency. The question is, at what price?

LD: If you think selfishly, in the small part, you may see something "good". You had more time for yourself or with the kids. And sure, it accelerated digitalization. But simply hundreds of thousands of people died and in that case "crisis as opportunity" is just cynical. That's easy to say from Switzerland, where you can do short-time work and health care is good, but in many other countries the "opportunity" part is currently already damn low.

What developments do you expect in the coming months? What scenarios are you planning for?

TD: If the situation has shown one thing, it's that you never really know what tomorrow holds. We observe everything closely, plan as well as possible. But in the case of exogenous shocks, as an entrepreneur you also simply have to react to what comes.

LD: Jürgen Klopp was asked about Corona the other day. He said, "I'm a soccer coach, how would I know?" (laughs). That's how I feel, too. I can't predict what will happen. Wirz has great customers and generally acts prudently when it comes to big investments. During the lockdown, we did everything we could to look to our employees and our partners. That's all we can do.

Do you believe - as an advertiser and as an asset manager - that consumer and investment behavior will now change?

LD: Corona will leave a notch. In Switzerland - and I don't want to downplay this, many people have died here as well - we have an insane safety net. As a result, people feel the crisis less. But it still wasn't a "normal" time. And we will all remember that.

TD: I am skeptical that much will change. We Swiss have the privilege to think about how we would like to live now. Do we travel less? Are we more mindful? But billions of people have no choice at all but to continue living as they do now, because otherwise their livelihoods will disappear.

LD: Yes, that's true again. I think we now have to hope for the best. And see how it comes.