"We are now switching from the regional to the Bundesliga"
Media Agencies: At the beginning of the year, m&m Holding acquired the Schreiner & Van Bokkel Group in the Netherlands (WW 1/05). *Werbewoche* spoke with Wolfgang Mecklenburg, Pierre Schreiner, and Frans Van Bokkel.
Media agencies m&m Holding took over the Schreiner & Van Bokkel Group in Holland at the beginning of the year (WW 1/05). Werbewoche spoke
with Wolfgang Mecklenburg, Pierre Schreiner and Frans Van Bokkel.
WW: Mr. Schreiner, Mr. Van Bokkel, why did you sell your company to Switzerland of all places - and why to Mr. Mecklenburg? Pierre Schreiner: Our company has existed for 14 years, and we were courted right from the start. But we didn't want to join a large international network ...
Why not?
Schreiner: We are a family business, we are also a family business. That's why we always said: if we sell, it will be to a small group that is similar to ours. There was no need for a quick sale, our group is doing well.
Wolfgang Mecklenburg: That's important: both in Holland and here, every unit is on a sound footing. They didn't have to sell.
Schreiner: Even our name remains the same, we attach great importance to that. We are both well-known in the Dutch industry from our previous activities, which also helped us to find clients for our agency.
Frans Van Bokkel: It was also attractive that m&m, like us, is independent of advertising agencies and clients. There are not many such agencies in Europe. However, we didn't look around too much. We came into contact with Mr. Mecklenburg - and the atmosphere was right.
In Switzerland, Mr. Mecklenburg is known as a tough negotiator.
Media buyer ...
Van Bokkel: We appreciate that.
But did you also suspect that the negotiations with him could take over a year? No, but that doesn't matter. Serious decisions have to be carefully considered. If you want to expand in Europe like m&m, you have to clarify a lot of things with potential takeover candidates. And you have to sleep on it. It was no different for us.
Schreiner: Then there's the distance between Holland and Switzerland and the different languages, all of which takes time. What's more, the two of us are not easy negotiating partners.
Van Bokkel: That's why I like the fact that Mr. Mecklenburg is also a tough negotiator. But we also laughed a lot.
Mecklenburg: I can say that I feel comfortable with them and am always happy to see them. But that had to grow first.
So you have the same philosophy? Van Bokkel: Yes, but not only in the commercial sector. As at m&m, the decision-making channels at Schreiner & Van Bokkel are short and the individual employees are not numbers.
Mr. Mecklenburg, you had hoped for an earlier end to the negotiations. Did you miscalculate?
Mecklenburg: In part, yes. Swiss, Dutch and EU law had to be taken into account in the contracts, which made everything very complicated. Then there are the tax aspects. Thirdly, the trade unions in Holland have a completely different position to ours. If you don't take a close look at all these things, a mistake can cost a lot of money. Then there are the contracts with the old owners: We didn't want to simply pay off Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel, we wanted to involve them. After all, we are essentially taking over their contacts. What good is the takeover if the customers don't go with us? Or the employees, with whom the two have very close personal relationships. If you don't approach all of this carefully, there is a risk that very good employees or customers will leave.
Will the transition with customers and crew be seamless? Van Bokkel: We have only received positive feedback from customers so far. They are very satisfied with the new solution.
Mecklenburg: The Dutch employees also told me they were relieved. That's why I don't like to talk about a purchase. It's more like the three of us together at the end of our professional lives have provided something that another generation can now take over.
You mention the succession, which you have basically already arranged.
Mecklenburg: That is another stroke of luck in this story: Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel have no family members who are interested in continuing the company. But the group has excellent management. I, on the other hand, have a young woman who is very well educated and wants to take over the management. What's more, the managers in Holland and my wife are roughly the same age, have similar educational backgrounds and get on well.
So far, m&m has moved with customers abroad and grown there. Now it's different in Holland, where you've suddenly become a major player in the market. Isn't there a danger in such a strategic break?
Mecklenburg: I don't see a break, but rather an opportunity. When we expanded into the EU, we never aspired to be present in all countries, which is why the gap in the Benelux countries didn't bother us. But then we met Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel - and everything fell into place perfectly. With such a stroke of luck, you can no longer ask whether it fits in with the previous strategy or not.
Van Bokkel: We don't see a break either, just a new direction. We are experiencing something similar with our company: just one year after founding it, we set up two more agencies in Holland. And later two more. By joining m&m now, we are taking another step, this time into the international market.
But it is certainly a completely new experience to start from scratch in Holland.
Mecklenburg: Yes, we are moving from the regional to the Bundesliga, so to speak. This confronts us with completely new issues. For example, we have to introduce international controlling - something we didn't have to this extent before. Coordination between the countries is becoming more difficult. The Swiss holding company will therefore have additional tasks that go beyond controlling the media business.
One important task will be to bring together the two different corporate cultures in Holland and Switzerland.
Schreiner: We started this very early on. The management from all m&m country offices and from Schreiner & Van Bokkel went to Hungary for three days in the summer, with partners and children. There were about 30 of us. That was very confidence-building.
Van Bokkel: Before we were two families, after the meeting in Hungary it was one family.
Mecklenburg: All the children were there, from six-month-olds to teenagers. It worked quite naturally. And when you see each other again, you ask about the family, about the children's progress at school. It's a different relationship than in large international groups, where things are more anonymous.
Van Bokkel: We were basically already in agreement before the trip to Hungary, but it was important for us to see that the other family of companies had the same attitude. That gave us the certainty that we could play a good match together.
Mr. Mecklenburg, at the beginning of 2004 you were still planning to move to Belgium with the Belgian Alcopa Group.
Mecklenburg: At the time, Alcopa was able to take over various areas from the bankrupt Erb Group - and we initially kept the budgets. This contact gave us the opportunity to apply to become Alcopa's media agency in Belgium. But it didn't come to that after all. In the middle of the year, Emil Frey AG in Switzerland was awarded the contract for the Suzuki import, which had previously been with our other major client, Alcopa. Because the two companies now had different interests, we were suddenly caught between two fronts and had to make a decision. We chose Emil Frey AG because it is an important customer for us in France and Germany.
Assuming you could have gone to Belgium with Alcopa and also taken over Schreiner & Van Bokkel - would you have been able to do both? Mecklenburg: Yes, we would have done both at the same time. That will continue to be the case: If we win a customer who is active in Belgium, we would immediately step in with our "subsidiary" in Brussels. Just as we are doing now in Eastern Europe.
Mr. Van Bokkel, Mr. Schreiner, you continue to manage your agency in Belgium. Please describe this company?
Schreiner: Ten years ago, we took over a one-man agency in Brussels with a single, very large client. Because we as Schreiner & Van Bokkel were not as well known as in Holland, it was important to have Belgian management in order to gain more Belgian clients. Today we work there for the travel company Correndon, for the insurance company Delta LLozd, Fruits of Florida and others. The connection to m&m Holding will also help us. Last year, our 14 employees generated sales of 78 million francs.
Mecklenburg: You should know that the financial part of the Belgian agency has not yet been integrated into m&m Holding, whereas the operational part will be integrated via the country board. We are also keeping the company name. But because the agency is still on shaky ground, we are being cautious at the moment.
Are there any chances of the company being integrated one day? All three: Yes.
Mecklenburg: For us, it is more urgent to win over Hungary and the Czech Republic now than to solve the financial part of Belgium. Belgium is already a de facto member today.
You will soon be going to Eastern Europe. What strategy are you choosing there?
Mecklenburg: We are proceeding in the same style as before: We have been offered budgets for Eastern European countries from various sources and we said yes, even though we have little knowledge of these countries. We will decide in mid-February with whom and how we will take this step. I am of the opinion that you should use your opportunities flexibly. But I will only go as far as I can bear the risk for our Group. We now have one advantage: We are one group, we can now draw on knowledge at different levels.
Will the four-member Board of Directors of m&m Holding involve Mr. Van Bokkel and Mr. Schreiner in such decisions - or will they be spectators? Mecklenburg: Although they are not members of the Board of Directors of m&m Holding, I would still describe them as "participants". Because I attach great importance to them expressing their views on our ideas. I value their experience and knowledge and am counting on them to support us. After all, Dutch companies are also interested in expanding into Hungary or the Czech Republic.
So it could be that Mr. Van Bokkel or Mr. Schreiner travel to Hungary to see what's right?Mecklenburg: Yes. The ownership structure is of secondary importance in such cases. We negotiated until the end of 2004, now we are starting to work together. Or to put it another way: now we're putting all our horses together and setting off ...
Three media agency alumni who met at the round tableWolfgang Mecklenburg zu Liddow (65) was appointed Head of Planning and Media Research at Lintas/ Unilever Switzerland in 1970 - after nine years in management positions on both the agency and publishing side. From 1976 to 1982, he was a member of the management team at Jean Frey AG, where he developed the company's advertising marketing. In 1982, he founded m&m Marketingservice AG as a service company for media publishers. In the mid-1980s, he transformed m&m into one of the first media agencies in Switzerland.
Frans Van Bokkel, Media Director Lintas Holland, Founder and Director Initiative, Director The Media Buying Company, foundation and development of the media agency group Schreiner & Van Bokkel.
Pierre Schreiner, General Director of Admedia-VNU (United Dutch Publishers), founder and General Director of The Media Buying Company, foundation and development of the media agency group Schreiner & Van Bokkel.
Pierre Schreiner: "We didn't want to join a large international network."
Frans Van Bokkel: "Mr. Mecklenburg negotiated hard. But we
also laughed a lot."
Wolfgang Mecklenburg: "We didn't want to pay out Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel, we wanted to involve them."
Frans Van Bokkel, Wolfgang Mecklenburg, Pierre Schreiner, Markus Knöpfli (from left to right).
Interview: Markus Knöpfli
with Wolfgang Mecklenburg, Pierre Schreiner and Frans Van Bokkel.
WW: Mr. Schreiner, Mr. Van Bokkel, why did you sell your company to Switzerland of all places - and why to Mr. Mecklenburg? Pierre Schreiner: Our company has existed for 14 years, and we were courted right from the start. But we didn't want to join a large international network ...
Why not?
Schreiner: We are a family business, we are also a family business. That's why we always said: if we sell, it will be to a small group that is similar to ours. There was no need for a quick sale, our group is doing well.
Wolfgang Mecklenburg: That's important: both in Holland and here, every unit is on a sound footing. They didn't have to sell.
Schreiner: Even our name remains the same, we attach great importance to that. We are both well-known in the Dutch industry from our previous activities, which also helped us to find clients for our agency.
Frans Van Bokkel: It was also attractive that m&m, like us, is independent of advertising agencies and clients. There are not many such agencies in Europe. However, we didn't look around too much. We came into contact with Mr. Mecklenburg - and the atmosphere was right.
In Switzerland, Mr. Mecklenburg is known as a tough negotiator.
Media buyer ...
Van Bokkel: We appreciate that.
But did you also suspect that the negotiations with him could take over a year? No, but that doesn't matter. Serious decisions have to be carefully considered. If you want to expand in Europe like m&m, you have to clarify a lot of things with potential takeover candidates. And you have to sleep on it. It was no different for us.
Schreiner: Then there's the distance between Holland and Switzerland and the different languages, all of which takes time. What's more, the two of us are not easy negotiating partners.
Van Bokkel: That's why I like the fact that Mr. Mecklenburg is also a tough negotiator. But we also laughed a lot.
Mecklenburg: I can say that I feel comfortable with them and am always happy to see them. But that had to grow first.
So you have the same philosophy? Van Bokkel: Yes, but not only in the commercial sector. As at m&m, the decision-making channels at Schreiner & Van Bokkel are short and the individual employees are not numbers.
Mr. Mecklenburg, you had hoped for an earlier end to the negotiations. Did you miscalculate?
Mecklenburg: In part, yes. Swiss, Dutch and EU law had to be taken into account in the contracts, which made everything very complicated. Then there are the tax aspects. Thirdly, the trade unions in Holland have a completely different position to ours. If you don't take a close look at all these things, a mistake can cost a lot of money. Then there are the contracts with the old owners: We didn't want to simply pay off Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel, we wanted to involve them. After all, we are essentially taking over their contacts. What good is the takeover if the customers don't go with us? Or the employees, with whom the two have very close personal relationships. If you don't approach all of this carefully, there is a risk that very good employees or customers will leave.
Will the transition with customers and crew be seamless? Van Bokkel: We have only received positive feedback from customers so far. They are very satisfied with the new solution.
Mecklenburg: The Dutch employees also told me they were relieved. That's why I don't like to talk about a purchase. It's more like the three of us together at the end of our professional lives have provided something that another generation can now take over.
You mention the succession, which you have basically already arranged.
Mecklenburg: That is another stroke of luck in this story: Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel have no family members who are interested in continuing the company. But the group has excellent management. I, on the other hand, have a young woman who is very well educated and wants to take over the management. What's more, the managers in Holland and my wife are roughly the same age, have similar educational backgrounds and get on well.
So far, m&m has moved with customers abroad and grown there. Now it's different in Holland, where you've suddenly become a major player in the market. Isn't there a danger in such a strategic break?
Mecklenburg: I don't see a break, but rather an opportunity. When we expanded into the EU, we never aspired to be present in all countries, which is why the gap in the Benelux countries didn't bother us. But then we met Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel - and everything fell into place perfectly. With such a stroke of luck, you can no longer ask whether it fits in with the previous strategy or not.
Van Bokkel: We don't see a break either, just a new direction. We are experiencing something similar with our company: just one year after founding it, we set up two more agencies in Holland. And later two more. By joining m&m now, we are taking another step, this time into the international market.
But it is certainly a completely new experience to start from scratch in Holland.
Mecklenburg: Yes, we are moving from the regional to the Bundesliga, so to speak. This confronts us with completely new issues. For example, we have to introduce international controlling - something we didn't have to this extent before. Coordination between the countries is becoming more difficult. The Swiss holding company will therefore have additional tasks that go beyond controlling the media business.
One important task will be to bring together the two different corporate cultures in Holland and Switzerland.
Schreiner: We started this very early on. The management from all m&m country offices and from Schreiner & Van Bokkel went to Hungary for three days in the summer, with partners and children. There were about 30 of us. That was very confidence-building.
Van Bokkel: Before we were two families, after the meeting in Hungary it was one family.
Mecklenburg: All the children were there, from six-month-olds to teenagers. It worked quite naturally. And when you see each other again, you ask about the family, about the children's progress at school. It's a different relationship than in large international groups, where things are more anonymous.
Van Bokkel: We were basically already in agreement before the trip to Hungary, but it was important for us to see that the other family of companies had the same attitude. That gave us the certainty that we could play a good match together.
Mr. Mecklenburg, at the beginning of 2004 you were still planning to move to Belgium with the Belgian Alcopa Group.
Mecklenburg: At the time, Alcopa was able to take over various areas from the bankrupt Erb Group - and we initially kept the budgets. This contact gave us the opportunity to apply to become Alcopa's media agency in Belgium. But it didn't come to that after all. In the middle of the year, Emil Frey AG in Switzerland was awarded the contract for the Suzuki import, which had previously been with our other major client, Alcopa. Because the two companies now had different interests, we were suddenly caught between two fronts and had to make a decision. We chose Emil Frey AG because it is an important customer for us in France and Germany.
Assuming you could have gone to Belgium with Alcopa and also taken over Schreiner & Van Bokkel - would you have been able to do both? Mecklenburg: Yes, we would have done both at the same time. That will continue to be the case: If we win a customer who is active in Belgium, we would immediately step in with our "subsidiary" in Brussels. Just as we are doing now in Eastern Europe.
Mr. Van Bokkel, Mr. Schreiner, you continue to manage your agency in Belgium. Please describe this company?
Schreiner: Ten years ago, we took over a one-man agency in Brussels with a single, very large client. Because we as Schreiner & Van Bokkel were not as well known as in Holland, it was important to have Belgian management in order to gain more Belgian clients. Today we work there for the travel company Correndon, for the insurance company Delta LLozd, Fruits of Florida and others. The connection to m&m Holding will also help us. Last year, our 14 employees generated sales of 78 million francs.
Mecklenburg: You should know that the financial part of the Belgian agency has not yet been integrated into m&m Holding, whereas the operational part will be integrated via the country board. We are also keeping the company name. But because the agency is still on shaky ground, we are being cautious at the moment.
Are there any chances of the company being integrated one day? All three: Yes.
Mecklenburg: For us, it is more urgent to win over Hungary and the Czech Republic now than to solve the financial part of Belgium. Belgium is already a de facto member today.
You will soon be going to Eastern Europe. What strategy are you choosing there?
Mecklenburg: We are proceeding in the same style as before: We have been offered budgets for Eastern European countries from various sources and we said yes, even though we have little knowledge of these countries. We will decide in mid-February with whom and how we will take this step. I am of the opinion that you should use your opportunities flexibly. But I will only go as far as I can bear the risk for our Group. We now have one advantage: We are one group, we can now draw on knowledge at different levels.
Will the four-member Board of Directors of m&m Holding involve Mr. Van Bokkel and Mr. Schreiner in such decisions - or will they be spectators? Mecklenburg: Although they are not members of the Board of Directors of m&m Holding, I would still describe them as "participants". Because I attach great importance to them expressing their views on our ideas. I value their experience and knowledge and am counting on them to support us. After all, Dutch companies are also interested in expanding into Hungary or the Czech Republic.
So it could be that Mr. Van Bokkel or Mr. Schreiner travel to Hungary to see what's right?Mecklenburg: Yes. The ownership structure is of secondary importance in such cases. We negotiated until the end of 2004, now we are starting to work together. Or to put it another way: now we're putting all our horses together and setting off ...
Three media agency alumni who met at the round tableWolfgang Mecklenburg zu Liddow (65) was appointed Head of Planning and Media Research at Lintas/ Unilever Switzerland in 1970 - after nine years in management positions on both the agency and publishing side. From 1976 to 1982, he was a member of the management team at Jean Frey AG, where he developed the company's advertising marketing. In 1982, he founded m&m Marketingservice AG as a service company for media publishers. In the mid-1980s, he transformed m&m into one of the first media agencies in Switzerland.
Frans Van Bokkel, Media Director Lintas Holland, Founder and Director Initiative, Director The Media Buying Company, foundation and development of the media agency group Schreiner & Van Bokkel.
Pierre Schreiner, General Director of Admedia-VNU (United Dutch Publishers), founder and General Director of The Media Buying Company, foundation and development of the media agency group Schreiner & Van Bokkel.
Pierre Schreiner: "We didn't want to join a large international network."
Frans Van Bokkel: "Mr. Mecklenburg negotiated hard. But we
also laughed a lot."
Wolfgang Mecklenburg: "We didn't want to pay out Mr. Schreiner and Mr. Van Bokkel, we wanted to involve them."
Frans Van Bokkel, Wolfgang Mecklenburg, Pierre Schreiner, Markus Knöpfli (from left to right).
Interview: Markus Knöpfli
