"Stir and don't shake"

Werbewoche: Does the German secret service, for which you worked, still like you since you have been discussing the tactics you used to recruit confidence men in lectures and books?

Leo Martin: Initially, there was a sense of insecurity when my first book came out and I spoke publicly about my past. But that quickly subsided.

How did you manage to regain the trust of your former employer?

At my first presentations, there were always two guests in the audience who looked different from the others. For example, when I gave a presentation to the sales team of an insurance company, everyone was wearing a suit and tie and was about the same age. Only two of them were much younger, in jeans and jackets. Typical of young surveillance officers who are only sent on simple missions at the beginning, I thought. But I always followed the rules that had to be observed. And I still do today.

What are the rules?

I am allowed to talk in abstract form about cases or intelligence techniques that could also be googled. But when it comes to specific cases or intelligence methods that are not generally known, I have to keep my mouth shut. I am bound by professional secrecy until the last day of my life. I stick to this, not only because I would otherwise be liable to prosecution, but above all because I am convinced that the secret service does important work.

You advertise with the slogan "Secret weapons of communication". What motivated you to share your tactics with others?

My presentations and training sessions focus on how to build trust at the relationship level and thus increase your influence on others. This is important for all of us whenever we want to win others over to our goals, ideas or projects. In the intelligence service, I worked in extreme situations - with trusted men for whom something was really at stake and who were still willing to share information with me. In a cut-throat environment, you realize which tactics work and which don't. So in the end, it's more "bad weather rehearsed" methods than real secrets that I bring to the table.

Nevertheless, you are heard, people seem to be interested in what you have to say...

Yes, I benefit from the fact that, as an ex-agent, I can talk about leadership and communication topics from a new angle. It's attractive for conference and congress organizers to give the dry numbers a Hollywood touch. And I like doing that.

When you tried to recruit informants, didn't anyone ever find out about it?

Of course, I didn't get everyone. But a good 80 percent, and that's a good rate. Nevertheless, there were also pressure situations with those we ended up working with. One of the main rules is therefore to maintain a degree of basic fairness. That means never getting personal, never backstabbing, never blackmailing. Every contact in the secret service is closed in such a way that it can always be opened again.

In your book "Ich krieg dich!" (I'll get you!), you write that you were famous in the secret service for winning over a particularly large number of criminals as informants by quickly getting to the relationship level and building up a personal bond instead of arguing with facts.

I love the saying: "If you want to win people over, you have to stir them, not shake them." You don't need to try with pressure, rational arguments or tricks. Our counterpart is usually not stupid. That's why you have to grab them emotionally, at the basic need level.

Which is?

We humans are all dependent on two basic needs: We want to know where we stand. That's why the reliability and credibility of information is so important to us. And we want to be valued, i.e. to be treated as equals, especially in conflict situations.

If you transfer your insight to business life: What, for example, should a company do specifically to gain the trust of its employees?

Speak plainly, take a clear position. Make decisions and live them consistently. Your counterpart needs to know what you stand for. Clear communication is even more important than appreciation, something that companies often forget. You can't achieve goals just by being nice.

What do you think of money as an incentive?

Money is a good motivator in the short term, but too abstract in the long term. We get used to it too quickly. When I was dealing with my informers, money flowed during the feeding phase. But as soon as an V-man understands that the information he receives is offset by money, I can be sure of one thing: that I will hear more fantastic stories at every meeting, which will soon have nothing to do with reality. Money plays a role, but it must not be the main motivation for a relationship, because there is always a bad aftertaste.

Money is a good motivator in the short term, but too abstract in the long term.

How could journalists use your method when they want to get something out of a counterpart, for example a PR manager or a politician - even if the person doesn't necessarily want to reveal what they want to know?

If a journalist works for Bild, Blick or Krone and short-term success and a sensational story are important to him, he can work with tricks and buy information. But if a journalist wants to be involved in politics or business decision-makers in the long term, I would recommend a different strategy. I would stick to extremely clear agreements about what I can and cannot write. But if I abuse this trust once, the relationship is usually ruined forever.

But how does such familiarity develop in conversational situations that people start talking out of the closet?

Trust is not an instant thing. Trust is developed through experience and lessons learned. It is not realistic to want 100 percent immediately in the first meeting. You have to build up a network before you need it. And here again, the two basic needs are important: the other person must know where they stand and be treated respectfully as an equal.

If we take a look at advertising: How do you think your formula could be applied to building trust for a cause, a brand, a service?

Above all, it is important that the advertising delivers what it promises. You can't promise the best customer service in Switzerland if customers rarely reach anyone on the hotline. Authenticity is also the be-all and end-all in advertising. At the messaging service, we have always said that if we want to build trust in a short space of time, we have to ensure a high density of experiences. This means that, at best, I meet my undercover agent in a busy place, go for a walk with him and finish off with a drink in a bar. This creates the feeling of having already experienced a lot with the other person, even though you've only known each other for a short time. Variety is the means to an end here. So if advertisers want to build trust, they should create experiences.

Which advertisement do you remember best?

There was once an advertisement for toothpaste with the call to action to run your tongue over your teeth. Customers did this after brushing their teeth and realized that it felt great.

You write in your book that you are not interested in describing how to pull the wool over people's eyes, but in getting others to fully exploit their scope of action for you. Aren't the methods the same, no matter what your ultimate goal is?

Correct, yes.

In your opinion, what is still ethically acceptable and where are the limits?

If what you do is to the detriment of another person, especially over a longer period of time, most people condemn this as negative manipulation.

What does that mean in reverse? If we humans are as easily manipulated as you say - how can we protect ourselves, and how can we recognize if we are being manipulated?

Those who are easy to manipulate are those who do not think their way into situations, who are not aware of their strengths or their goals in life. It doesn't help them to know about tricks and methods. They can always be outwitted. If you don't want to be manipulated, you should ensure clarity in your life.

Interview: Ann-Kathrin Kübler

The interlocutor: Leo Martin's TV format "Verfolgt! Tätern auf der Spur" on RTL for two years. The former secret agent is also the author of the books "Ich krieg dich! Die Kunst, Menschen zu gewinnen" and "Ich durchschau dich! The art of reading people".

This article was first published in Werbewoche number 18 on November 3, 2017.